In the spirit of *constructive* debate, let me say that I undersand where
Ray is coming from with his query.
Labelling it *whining* is neither fair nor accurate. We don't have to agree
or disagree with his query, for it to be either valid and right, or invalid
and wrong. It's simply a catalyst for constructive discussion.
For one thing, I think it would help if readers of this list wouldn't take
every comment as if it were directed at changing the entire sport of autox,
or their own particular class. A well-populated street tire class at the
national level wouldn't affect the rules of the existing classes.
If anything, now that I've more experience with all this, I feel that the
only place that street tires make sense on a national level is in Stock
class, where the mods are limited in general to those that make sense for
street legal cars. But that's just me, and I'm not going to spend any time
lobbying anyone for that -- I've got my hands full on the proposed and, in
my opinion, unfair turbo limitations for SP.
So in Street Prepared, given its "mission statement" in the rule book, the R
tires make sense to me as a valid mod.
Anyway, that said, I choose to use street tires in SP because SP is the only
class that intrigues me with a street car, and since I don't use R tires on
the street, they're irrelevant to me in such a class. Just because of my
personality, I enjoy tinkering, and Stock doesn't allow enough of that to be
challenging for me (and allows R tires anyway), and Prepared has some odd
rules limitations that just don't appeal to me personally for my particular
car (though it looks like Mustangs do fairly well in it, so I'm always
reconsidering).
Here in San Diego the Improved Street class is expressly a Stock class with
a few additional allowable mods that still keep my turbocar out of them. I
could go with Street Modified, but since that's not a national class
(correct me if I'm wrong, please), it would create a "rubber ceiling" for me
if I get serious.
Plus my own car is DQd from competing in ST, unless I want to argue that I
could run in STU because induction systems are unrestricted -- hey, that's a
thought, I should check that out. Is it, or is it going, national?
Anyway, just because we don't agree with someone, we shouldn't be labelling
it as "wrong" or "whining". It really shuts down constructive discussion.
Notice I'm not doing that. :)
Just my two cents.
Richard Nichols
rnichol1@san.rr.com
San Diego, California, USA
86 Mustang SVO-1C: ESP-->FSP
Team SVO -- "Bred to race, not for show"
SVO Club of America Member
72 Pinto Sedan 2.0 3J - Original Owner, Restored:
@ the San Diego Automotive Museum.
Member, Pinto Car Club of America
-----Original Message-----
From: Jay Mitchell <jemitchell@compuserve.com>
To: RacerRay52@aol.com <RacerRay52@aol.com>; autox@autox.team.net
<autox@autox.team.net>
Date: Monday, May 10, 1999 9:27 AM
Subject: Re: Asking for ideas...
>RacerRay52@aol.com wote:
>
>
><snip a bunch of PAX examples>
>
>> If a street tire class is a sort of throwaway joke that
>isn't important
>>enough to organize in a stable, consistent way so that the
>outcome reflects
>>driving accomplishment and progress, then it doesn't matter.
>
>Then, I'd suggest you work to get your local region to come up
>with their own index.
>
>> If the class is intended to attract drivers who like to
>compete in at
>>least a semi-serious contest
>
>What the hell exactly is "semi-serious?" Is that like being
>"sorta pregnant?"
>
> >and who do not wish to invest in race tires then
>>it deserves a format that reflects a bit more attention to the
>formula that
>>decides the outcome.
>
>Such as? If you have constructive suggestions as opposed to
>gripes, I'm sure all sorts of folks would love to see 'em.
>
>> My suggestion has been to let the street tire cars compete
>in their
>>regular classes right along with the R tire cars but use a
>percentage
>>handicap to even the competition.
>
>That would STILL favor the guy who buys the best street tires and
>dedicates a set of rims to those tires. Or the R-tire competitors
>if the handicap isn't enough to pull street tires even. Somebody
>still wins, somebody else loses. I think that's inevitable.
>
>> This percentage idea will draw fire from the R tire
>contingent because
>>they will say that the money they have spent for tires will be
>wasted and
>>negated by giving street tire cars a handicap.
>
>There IS no "R tire contingent," only people who are skeptical of
>"solutions" such as the one you propose. If you give street tires
>a sufficient handicap, then serious local competitors will simply
>get a set of the best "street" tires and continue spanking the
>others in their class.
>
>> So I'm asking for some ideas, if anyone has any to offer,
>as to how the
>>street tire class could be organized in a way that makes sense,
>and is stable
>>and fair.
>
>
>ANY handicap system is intrinsically unfair, which is why you
>don't see trophies at the national level based on indexed
>performance (other than ProSolo, but that's another matter). To
>stand a chance, an index must be based on the maximum potential
>performance of a car when prepared to the limit of the rules, but
>you've just pointed out that you don't want to do that. Ergo,
>you'll always be at a disadvantage when running in indexed
>competition.
>
>Let me suggest that you simply find others in your local area who
>think like you do and engage in a direct comparison of heads-up
>times. If you insist on having your concept of "fairness"
>codified into the rules, you'll simply find that other
>competitors are more "serious" than you and won't hesitate to
>take maximum advantage of the NEW rules. Ergo, you'll still be at
>a disadvantage.
>
>Why not just have fun?
>
>Jay
>
>
>
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