John, I believe that you have met yourself coming back. I agree wholeheartedly
with your closing statement. It indeed takes lots of skill to drive a vintage
race car, or any race car well and have fun. Therefore, those who choose to
race or "drive" without acquiring the necessary knowledge/skill are a problem.
So long as vintage racing is a for profit business where the entry fee is more
important than the skill and knowledge level, there will be problems caused by
widely differing levels of skill, and by those whose lack of knowledge leads
them to do the unexpected(and dangerous)at speed when other drivers depend on
them. Yes, you can give others more space, but it is still racing, and when you
have loaded your car into a turn, your options are limited. Those like you who
equate speed or competence with recklessness should seek out parades, not
races. John
John Brosius wrote:
> This has been a very interesting discussion. Being a past competition
> director for SOVREN, I had the unpleasant task of informing fellow
> competitors that their actions had gotten them points. I made sure that an
> infraction committee was set up of drivers with extensive racing experience
> in vintage and previous SCCA National events. The committee therefore had
> members on it who were known for their speed and safety. They would listen
> to the offenders explanation of the event and then inform him/her of their
> decision.
> I drive a Tiger and rarely put two wheels off or spin. When I do though, I
> realize that I have driven beyond my or the cars ability and that is poor
> driving. In vintage, when I'm racing around fellow vintage drivers I leave
> plenty of room to pull out of situation where someone may not give you
> enough room or not be aware that I'm there. Vintage should be that racing
> arena where we, as competitors, give each other plenty of room to race and
> not push the envelope.
> Now if you must push that envelope, I suggest you reconfigure your car to
> go race SCCA where it is much more acceptable to dive into a corner, fight
> for position, and try and squeeze every tenth of a second out of your car in
> qualifing and the race. I've done that, rarely spin, but I do push the
> envelope and have had competitors try to take me out or off the track. The
> racing is hard but a lot of fun because it take even more skill to not get
> hit or hit someone in that arena; you just have to drive real well to pull
> it off. It is not Vintage racing though!! Better yet try Pro Racing. I was
> told in my first race to watch out for the European drivers because they
> will put you into the wall if you get in their way. That message definately
> got my attention and I kept my eyes wide open. That is too much work to be
> vintage but if you have to win your races then that might be the place for
> you. Everyone I raced against in these last two senario's were committed to
> driving as hard as they could which makes them reasonably predictable. Not
> so in vintage racing. I believe we need to make room for alot of different
> skill levels. If your good and fast you will be able to get around the
> person in front of you without intimidation. Vintage racing is supppose to
> be fun for spectators and racers.
> If you screw up and go off or hit someone, I hope your club takes action
> against you and reports it to the VMC so we in other clubs know when a loose
> cannon wants to go off at our event. If you get those points I would hope
> that you would work on improving your skill set so as not to go off again,
> hit someone, or maintain a reputation as someone that the rest feel you
> aren't safe to race around. Lets remember it takes a lot of skill to drive a
> vintage car well AND HAVE FUN!!John Brosius
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-vintage-race@autox.team.net
> > [mailto:owner-vintage-race@autox.team.net]On Behalf Of Susan and John
> > Roper
> > Sent: Sunday, September 26, 1999 12:42 PM
> > To: Jim & Ann Brown
> > Cc: Greg Solow; Bahnseye@aol.com; rem9@cornell.edu;
> > vintage-race@autox.team.net
> > Subject: Re: "Vintage" Racing
> >
> >
> > Jim, I, too, hope to be at TWS, and i'm sorry to say that I
> > disagree with you.
> > I do not know your level of experience, but I suspect that you
> > have not grasped
> > the import of what Greg has said and said well. Racing is a
> > contest of speed,
> > vintage racing included. After many races and many years it is
> > hard for me to
> > comprehend not being prepared to take to the grass/mud to avoid
> > another car. It
> > is the unfortunate mix of experienced racers and those who are
> > less knowlegible
> > that too often leads to unanticipatible, inappropriate moves that endanger
> > others and necessitate off course excursions. Though vintage is
> > not 10/10ths
> > racing it is racing and the parade mentality causes problems. If
> > you doubt what
> > I say watch Bob Merrill in the F Jr, a very talented, very fast
> > racer, who will
> > take great care to avoid creating any situation that would
> > endanger anyone.
> > There is, however, risk in racing. You should be aware and
> > accept that or not
> > be out there. John Roper
> >
> > Jim & Ann Brown wrote:
> >
> > > Greg Solow writes,
> > >
> > > -----Original message-----
> > >
> > > > I have to disagree about the "two off" and even "four off" Racing is
> > > about
> > > > pushing the envelope. To plush the envelope it is necessary
> > to explore
> > > the
> > > > limits. It is very possible to maintain control and go two
> > or four off
> > > > because for a brief moment at a certain point you found you
> > were going to
> > > > fast for the conditions. I believe that there is a very big difference
> > > > between being "out of control" and "driving you car off of
> > the pavement"
> > > > because that was the "safe and incontrol" thing to do at the time and
> > > under
> > > > the circumstances.
> > > >
> > > > Greg Solow
> > > ------------
> > > I will say this for the above posting -- it appears to clearly
> > define the
> > > ultimate question underlying this interesting and valuable thread.
> > >
> > > To say that in vintage racing "four off," standing alone, does
> > not amount to
> > > being out of control, absolutely misapprehends, in my opinion, the
> > > fundamental difference between "vintage racing" and "racing." The word
> > > "vintage" has been read out of the equation.
> > >
> > > In a couple of hours all will stop in our household while we
> > huddle around
> > > the TV to watch modern Formula One race cars driven by
> > professionals roar
> > > around the Nurburgring. We fully expect to see one or more of
> > these race
> > > cars go out of control as the envelope is pushed just a
> > micro-tad too far.
> > > That is what these fellows are paid to do, and they are well paid --
> > > arguably the most highly paid athletes in the world.
> > >
> > > They are paid to put their race cars and their lives, and the
> > race cars and
> > > lives of other drivers on the course, at risk. As just one example, it
> > > would not surprise me in the least today should one of these
> > highly skilled
> > > professional drivers, Jacques Villeneuve, lose control of his car at the
> > > Nurburgring. It happens all the time, yet he is an ex-World
> > Champion. He
> > > has proven his driving skills. His father drove in the same
> > dramatic and
> > > devil-may-care way, and when Giles, a truly great driver, went
> > 11/10 just
> > > once too often, he paid the ultimate price.
> > >
> > > When, however, I pay for the privilege of being Walter Mitty
> > for a weekend I
> > > do not intend to put my car at risk, my life at risk, other
> > drivers' cars at
> > > risk or their lives at risk by doing stupid things-- repeat, by
> > doing stupid
> > > things. Nor do I expect that of other drivers on the track. I
> > very much
> > > hope that next weekend when I am at the Texas World Speedway we
> > do not have
> > > another driver sharing the contrary views expressed in the
> > above posting,
> > > which I just could not let go by without a response. I would
> > not even want
> > > to be a spectator within rebound range. I am proud to observe,
> > by the way,
> > > that if we have such a driver in our club he or she has
> > restrained his or
> > > her impulses very well.
> > >
> > > Forgive the length, but this is now down to the nitty-gritty.
> > Pray do not
> > > misunderstand, accidents do happen even when the greatest of
> > care is taken.
> > > But when a vintage race car driver believes it is acceptable to drive
> > > irresponsibly, I, for one, do not wish to share the race track with him.
> > >
> > > All the best,
> > >
> > > Jim Brown
> > > Houston
> >
> >
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