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The M was rated at 110HP--more if you got the optional branch
extractor--as opposed to a stock BN2's 90HP. That's a 22% increase in
power; I'd call that significant. Also, how do you 'hang' a camshaft and
pistons on an engine (the mechanics were supposed to pull the engine,
but if DMH and Geoff weren't around they'd cheat and do the mods in situ)?
I think at least part of the value of an M is that it made an appearance
at the Healey factory, possibly with DMH and/or Geoff in attendance, as
opposed to just coming off the Austin assembly line. Also, the
modifications were, for the most part, the same as made to the cars that
ran at LeMans in '52 ('53?) and came in 13th (or 14th) overall. When
customers started asking for the same modifications DMH first sold a
kit, then the complete car (anyone remember 'Race on Sunday, sell on
Monday?').
I'd say the market has spoken, since genuine M cars command a
significant price premium (hence why of the original, documented 640
cars only 3,000 remain).
bs
On 12/15/2023 2:16 PM, Michael Salter wrote:
> I'm not an "M" guy really because as someone mentioned there isn't
> that much to hanging the "modification " parts on any 100.
> If the "M" designation involved significant performance
> modifications, say like an "M" series BMW, which could not be easily
> copied, then I would consider them be very special.
> I understand that Mr Meade has now sold his "M" so would not be
> surprised to see the "Registry" fade away.
> Just my opinion.
>
> M
>
> On Fri., Dec. 15, 2023, 1:59 p.m. josef-eckert--- via Healeys,
> <healeys@autox.team.net> wrote:
>
> What makes a 100M? Very good question and not easy to answer. In
> my opinion, an Austin-Healey 100M, especially as the price
> category is significantly higher than the normal 100, is a car
> that any modification reduces its value. A heavily modified 100M
> is nothing special. It's a modified 100 and no longer an M. But
> this is my personal opinion. A new chassis would be such a major
> modification for me, as would a conversion to disc brakes at the
> front or a conversion to a Weber carburettors, etc. This would be
> simply no longer a Genuine 100M. I would then rather buy an
> original Austin-Healey 100 for the same money. But I have to
> admit, for me the hype surrounding the 100M is far exaggerated for
> what the car is. It's a special model with a little more
> horsepower, but not anything particularly special. Its like an
> Alpina BMW or a AMG Mercedes. Josef Eckert Germany
>
> -----Original-Nachricht-----
>
> Betreff: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
>
> Datum: 2023-12-15T18:07:16+0100
>
> Von: "Bob Spidell" <bspidell@comcast.net>
>
> An: "HealeyRick" <healeyrik@gmail.com>
>
> Note the Registry will also certify 'Le Mans Conversions,' which
> may be what Kent's nasty is/was. Some have noted you can build a
> 'better M' with aftermarket parts (Isky cam, alloy head, SBC, etc.).
>
> I don't think either Kilmartin or Jules makes a 100 chassis, but
> I'd be somewhat more sympathetic to that, but not so much hanging
> an M body and parts on a BN1 (a BN2, /maybe/). The main problem I
> see is an earnest owner may sell a conversion (aka 'counterfeit')
> with full disclosure, but an owner or two down the road the
> 'Tribute' tag has been conveniently forgotten (I'm not all in on
> 'tribute' anything, be they cars or rock bands).
>
>
> On 12/15/2023 7:17 AM, HealeyRick wrote:
>
> This is all hypothesis based on speculation so take it with
> that caveat. Let's say one had a rusty factory 100M that was
> so bad it needed a new frame. How hard would it be to
> transfer the 100M body parts over to a solid BN1 chassis along
> with the oh-so-valuable chassis plate? The 100M Registry seems
> to focus mostly on the original body parts and cockpit
> surrounds to certify a car. Even cars with non-original
> engines have been registered. I'm pretty certain Kent Lacy's
> Nasty M was on the registry. So is the BaT car still an M?Â
> Some pretty valuable race cars have been crashed and fitted
> with new chassis and still bring big money at auction.
> To me, what makes an M an M is the motor. If an M no longer
> has its original motor, or equal replacement, it has lost its
> character as an M. Otherwise, it's a BN2 with a louvered hood.
> It's almost like if a Sunbeam Tiger blew its motor and it was
> replaced with an Alpine motor. Sure, it's got the right serial
> number on the unibody, but it's not much of a Tiger anymore.
> The BaT car with what appears to be non-original carbs and
> distributor caused me concern. Who would remove those from an
> original M motor? C'mon 100M sellers, pop the valve cover,
> remove the rockers and put a dial indicator on the pushrods so
> we can see if there is still a 100M cam in the lump!
> Happy Healeydays,
> Rick Neville
>
> On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 1:05â?¯PM Bob Spidell
> <bspidell@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> Excellent report, thank you.
>
> I was one of the commenters on BaT--I joined BaT to
> comment--but, since I have a BN2/100M I'm not familiar
> with BN1 differences and could only point out obvious
> differences with my car (which was completely original as
> far as I can tell, except for extensive body work). One
> thing that was somewhat disturbing to me is that the
> Registry certified this car, while noting some major
> anomalies (the carbs, for instance, looked to be new and
> didn't have the hand scribing like my car).
>
> The other thing that interested me is, how do you value
> this car? Yes, it's a very nice car, probably a good
> driver but, IMO, its value /should/ be less than a
> comparably restored, original BN1 or BN2. And, what did
> the previous owner know, or should have known about this
> car? How do you present it for sale; as a BN1 with 'M
> bits?' It would need the proverbial asterisk alongside the
> page title.
>
> Bob
>
>
>
> On 12/14/2023 8:15 AM, S and T Miller wrote:
>
> If you were following it recently, you might find my
> observations interesting. So I went down to Michael's
> motor cars to help him determine if the 100m indeed
> has a BN1 chassis. Here is what I found.
> It has the BN1 inner fenders with the rolled
> pressings. It has the BN1 front brake hose frame mount
> the is less pronounced welded BN1 bracket, as the
> later cars have a bolted on bracket. The front shock
> towers have no evidence of being replaced and show the
> factory welds. The gearbox mount shows
> non-original/factory welds as if it were replaced to
> accommodate the BN2 mount.
> What I found most interesting is that where a BN1 has
> two OD relays mounted under the dash, it took shining
> a light it different directions to just make out the
> slight evidence of filled holes (4 of then for the two
> relays). And I was able to reach inside the vent just
> below that area with my fingers and feel the welds and
> welding wire that was used to fill those 4 holes. I
> can tell you someone took great care to try and make
> those holes seem as they never existed. Along with
> that, where a BN2 would have the single OD relay
> attached to the firewall with machine screws screwed
> into welded captive nuts on the firewall, you can see
> plain sheet screws were used to mount it in what would
> be a BN2 relay position.
> I also feel the engine tag is a repo because of the
> lighter stamping. Originals tend to have the numbers/
> letters stamped with a deeper end result. I took my
> repo engine tag along to compare, and they appeared
> identical in the stampings. The body/ bath tag and VIN
> plate appear original. Now that doesn't mean that the
> engine isn't the correct M engine, because there could
> be many reasons why the engine tag was replaced.
> Anyone who drove a stock 100 compared to a 100M can
> attest to the difference in power, and Mike stated
> that it indeed has that M power.
> The boot lid shows no evidence of the stay bracket
> being swapped off another lid, and if you look closely
> you can see that the boot shows some previous
> age/life. I'd believe it to be original. I could not
> make out any evidence of the bonnet number being
> sliced in from a M bonnet, but I will say that the
> underside of the bonnet seemed suspiciously clean and
> prestine. I couldn't detect any age like the boot, but
> that would be for someone else to decide.
> Mike had asked me if the cold air box was original,Â
> and I simply don't have that experience to know. I
> have anyways heard if it looks old, it's original. It
> does indeed look to have some age, so?
> I feel at some point in this car's life someone went
> to some effort to try and conceal that these 100M
> parts were reinstalled on a BN1 chassis. Another
> interesting note is that there was an attempt to fill
> the holes where a BN1 chassis plate is fitted on the
> frame rail. Perhaps the person didn't realize that the
> holes continued over to the BN2's, and thought they
> were erasing evidence of a BN1 chassis?
> With all that said, Mike is simply trying to represent
> the car correctly. The car is a very nice car! Paint
> is very nice, car is straight, and gaps look good.
> Interior is very nice, and looks to be a very good car
> all around. I didn't drive the car, but Mike has years
> of experience under his belt, so I'd trust his
> opinions on that. With the quality of the
> restoration, it is surprising that the front frame to
> shroud brackets were not welded to the frame. Chrome
> looks good, and I'd think winning some trophies at a
> popular vote car would not be an issue.
> The Millers
>
> "Always drive them, but remember each drive in an
> antique car is a test drive."
>
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation $12.75
>
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<body>
The M was rated at 110HP--more if you got the optional branch
extractor--as opposed to a stock BN2's 90HP. That's a 22% increase
in power; I'd call that significant. Also, how do you 'hang' a
camshaft and pistons on an engine (the mechanics were supposed to
pull the engine, but if DMH and Geoff weren't around they'd cheat
and do the mods in situ)?<br>
<br>
I think at least part of the value of an M is that it made an
appearance at the Healey factory, possibly with DMH and/or Geoff in
attendance, as opposed to just coming off the Austin assembly line.
Also, the modifications were, for the most part, the same as made to
the cars that ran at LeMans in '52 ('53?) and came in 13th (or 14th)
overall. When customers started asking for the same modifications
DMH first sold a kit, then the complete car (anyone remember 'Race
on Sunday, sell on Monday?').<br>
<br>
I'd say the market has spoken, since genuine M cars command a
significant price premium (hence why of the original, documented 640
cars only 3,000 remain). <br>
<br>
bs<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 12/15/2023 2:16 PM, Michael Salter
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAB3i7LLe1eYzRUztKOcVcRT=WK_8QcHNBA5WR85gKvX7d=hT=g@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="auto">I'm not an "M" guy really because as someone
mentioned there isn't that much to hanging the "modification "
parts on any 100.Â
<div dir="auto">If the "M" designation involved significant
performance modifications, say like an "M" series BMW, which
could not be easily copied, then I would consider them be very
special.
<div dir="auto">I understand that Mr Meade has now sold his
"M" so would not be surprised to see the "Registry" fade
away.</div>
<div dir="auto">Just my opinion. </div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">M</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri., Dec. 15, 2023, 1:59
p.m. josef-eckert--- via Healeys, <<a
href="mailto:healeys@autox.team.net"; moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">healeys@autox.team.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<pre id="m_-8948067483587624533tw-target-text" dir="ltr"
style="text-align:left"><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" lang="en">What
makes a 100M?
Very good question and not easy to answer.
In my opinion, an Austin-Healey 100M, especially as the price category is
significantly higher than the normal 100,
is a car that any modification reduces its value. A heavily modified 100M is
nothing special. It's a modified 100 and
no longer an M. But this is my personal opinion. A new chassis would be such a
major modification for me, as would a
conversion to disc brakes at the front or a conversion to a Weber carburettors,
etc. This would be simply no longer a
Genuine 100M. I would then rather buy an original Austin-Healey 100 for the
same money. But I have to admit, for me
the hype surrounding the 100M is far exaggerated for what the car is. It's a
special model with a little more
horsepower, but not anything particularly special. Its like an Alpina BMW or a
AMG Mercedes.
Josef Eckert
Germany
</span></pre>
<p style="margin:0px"><span
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">Â </span></p>
<p style="margin:0px"><span
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">Â </span></p>
<p style="margin:0px">Â </p>
<p style="margin:0px">Â </p>
<p style="margin:0px">-----Original-Nachricht-----</p>
<p style="margin:0px">Betreff: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on
BAT</p>
<p style="margin:0px">Datum: 2023-12-15T18:07:16+0100</p>
<p style="margin:0px">Von: "Bob Spidell" <<a
href="mailto:bspidell@comcast.net"; target="_blank"
rel="noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">bspidell@comcast.net</a>></p>
<p style="margin:0px">An: "HealeyRick" <<a
href="mailto:healeyrik@gmail.com"; target="_blank"
rel="noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">healeyrik@gmail.com</a>></p>
<p style="margin:0px">Â </p>
<p style="margin:0px">Â </p>
<p style="margin:0px">Â </p>
<div
style="color:#000000;font:12px Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">Note
the Registry will also certify 'Le Mans Conversions,'
which may be what Kent's nasty is/was. Some have noted you
can build a 'better M' with aftermarket parts (Isky cam,
alloy head, SBC, etc.). <br>
<br>
I don't think either Kilmartin or Jules makes a 100
chassis, but I'd be somewhat more sympathetic to that, but
not so much hanging an M body and parts on a BN1 (a BN2,
<em>maybe</em>).
The main problem I see is an earnest owner may sell a
conversion (aka 'counterfeit') with full disclosure, but
an owner or two down the road the 'Tribute' tag has been
conveniently forgotten (I'm not all in on 'tribute'
anything, be they cars or rock bands).<br>
<br>
<br>
<div>On 12/15/2023 7:17 AM, HealeyRick wrote:</div>
<blockquote>
<div dir="ltr">This is all hypothesis based on
speculation so take it with that caveat. Let's say
one had a rusty factory 100M that was so bad it needed
a new frame. How hard would it be to transfer the
100M body parts over to a solid BN1 chassis along with
the oh-so-valuable chassis plate? The 100M Registry
seems to focus mostly on the original body parts and
cockpit surrounds to certify a car. Even cars with
non-original engines have been registered. I'm pretty
certain Kent Lacy's Nasty M was on the registry. So is
the BaT car still an M? Some pretty valuable race
cars have been crashed and fitted with new chassis and
still bring big money at auction.Â
<div>Â </div>
<div>To me, what makes an M an M is the motor. If an
M no longer has its original motor, or equal
replacement, it has lost its character as an M.
Otherwise, it's a BN2 with a louvered hood. It's
almost like if a Sunbeam Tiger blew its motor and it
was replaced with an Alpine motor. Sure, it's got
the right serial number on the unibody, but it's not
much of a Tiger anymore. The BaT car with what
appears to be non-original carbs and distributor
caused me concern. Who would remove those from an
original M motor? C'mon 100M sellers, pop the valve
cover, remove the rockers and put a dial indicator
on the pushrods so we can see if there is still a
100M cam in the lump!</div>
<div>
<div>Â </div>
<div>Happy Healeydays,</div>
<div>Rick Neville</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr">On Thu, Dec 14, 2023
at 1:05â?¯PM Bob Spidell <<a
href="mailto:bspidell@comcast.net"; target="_blank"
rel="noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">bspidell@comcast.net</a>>
wrote:</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid #cccccc;padding-left:1ex">
<div>Excellent report, thank you. <br>
<br>
I was one of the commenters on BaT--I joined BaT
to comment--but, since I have a BN2/100M I'm not
familiar with BN1 differences and could only point
out obvious differences with my car (which was
completely original as far as I can tell, except
for extensive body work). One thing that was
somewhat disturbing to me is that the Registry
certified this car, while noting some major
anomalies (the carbs, for instance, looked to be
new and didn't have the hand scribing like my
car). <br>
<br>
The other thing that interested me is, how do you
value this car? Yes, it's a very nice car,
probably a good driver but, IMO, its value <em>should</em>
be less than a comparably restored, original BN1
or BN2. And, what did the previous owner know, or
should have known about this car? How do you
present it for sale; as a BN1 with 'M bits?' It
would need the proverbial asterisk alongside the
page title.<br>
<br>
Bob<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div>On 12/14/2023 8:15 AM, S and T Miller wrote:</div>
<blockquote>
<div
style="font-family:inherit;font-size:inherit;color:inherit;background-color:transparent">
<div>If you were following it recently, you
might find my observations interesting. So
I went down to Michael's motor cars to help
him determine if the 100m indeed has a BN1
chassis. Here is what I found.</div>
<div>Â </div>
<div>It has the BN1 inner fenders with the
rolled pressings. It has the BN1 front brake
hose frame mount the is less pronounced
welded BN1 bracket, as the later cars have a
bolted on bracket. The front shock towers
have no evidence of being replaced and show
the factory welds. The gearbox mount shows
non-original/factory welds as if it were
replaced to accommodate the BN2 mount. </div>
<div>Â </div>
<div>What I found most interesting is that
where a BN1 has two OD relays mounted under
the dash, it took shining a light it
different directions to just make out the
slight evidence of filled holes (4 of then
for the two relays). And I was able to reach
inside the vent just below that area with my
fingers and feel the welds and welding wire
that was used to fill those 4 holes. I can
tell you someone took great care to try and
make those holes seem as they never
existed. Along with that, where a BN2 would
have the single OD relay attached to the
firewall with machine screws screwed into
welded captive nuts on the firewall, you
can see plain sheet screws were used to
mount it in what would be a BN2 relay
position. </div>
<div>Â </div>
<div>I also feel the engine tag is a repo
because of the lighter stamping. Originals
tend to have the numbers/ letters stamped
with a deeper end result. I took my repo
engine tag along to compare, and they
appeared identical in the stampings. The
body/ bath tag and VIN plate appear
original. Now that doesn't mean that the
engine isn't the correct M engine, because
there could be many reasons why the engine
tag was replaced. Anyone who drove a stock
100 compared to a 100M can attest to the
difference in power, and Mike stated that it
indeed has that M power. </div>
<div>Â </div>
<div>The boot lid shows no evidence of the
stay bracket being swapped off another lid,
and if you look closely you can see that the
boot shows some previous age/life. I'd
believe it to be original. I could not make
out any evidence of the bonnet number being
sliced in from a M bonnet, but I will say
that the underside of the bonnet seemed
suspiciously clean and prestine. I couldn't
detect any age like the boot, but that would
be for someone else to decide. </div>
<div>Â </div>
<div>Mike had asked me if the cold air box was
original, and I simply don't have that
experience to know. I have anyways heard if
it looks old, it's original. It does indeed
look to have some age, so?</div>
<div>Â </div>
<div>I feel at some point in this car's life
someone went to some effort to try and
conceal that these 100M parts were
reinstalled on a BN1 chassis. Another
interesting note is that there was an
attempt to fill the holes where a BN1
chassis plate is fitted on the frame rail.
Perhaps the person didn't realize that the
holes continued over to the BN2's, and
thought they were erasing evidence of a BN1
chassis? </div>
<div>Â </div>
<div>With all that said, Mike is simply trying
to represent the car correctly. The car is a
very nice car! Paint is very nice, car is
straight, and gaps look good. Interior is
very nice, and looks to be a very good car
all around. I didn't drive the car, but Mike
has years of experience under his belt, so
I'd trust his opinions on that. With the
quality of the restoration, it is
surprising that the front frame to shroud
brackets were not welded to the frame.
Chrome looks good, and I'd think winning
some trophies at a popular vote car would
not be an issue. </div>
</div>
<div>Â </div>
<div>The Millers<br>
 <br>
"Always drive them, but remember each drive in
an antique car is a test drive."</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
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