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This is all hypothesis based on speculation so take it with that caveat.
Let's say one had a rusty factory 100M that was so bad it needed a new
frame. How hard would it be to transfer the 100M body parts over to a
solid BN1 chassis along with the oh-so-valuable chassis plate? The 100M
Registry seems to focus mostly on the original body parts and cockpit
surrounds to certify a car. Even cars with non-original engines have been
registered. I'm pretty certain Kent Lacy's Nasty M was on the registry. So
is the BaT car still an M? Some pretty valuable race cars have been
crashed and fitted with new chassis and still bring big money at auction.
To me, what makes an M an M is the motor. If an M no longer has its
original motor, or equal replacement, it has lost its character as an M.
Otherwise, it's a BN2 with a louvered hood. It's almost like if a Sunbeam
Tiger blew its motor and it was replaced with an Alpine motor. Sure, it's
got the right serial number on the unibody, but it's not much of a Tiger
anymore. The BaT car with what appears to be non-original carbs and
distributor caused me concern. Who would remove those from an original M
motor? C'mon 100M sellers, pop the valve cover, remove the rockers and put
a dial indicator on the pushrods so we can see if there is still a 100M cam
in the lump!
Happy Healeydays,
Rick Neville
On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 1:05=E2=80=AFPM Bob Spidell <bspidell@comcast.net> =
wrote:
> Excellent report, thank you.
>
> I was one of the commenters on BaT--I joined BaT to comment--but, since I
> have a BN2/100M I'm not familiar with BN1 differences and could only poin=
t
> out obvious differences with my car (which was completely original as far
> as I can tell, except for extensive body work). One thing that was somewh=
at
> disturbing to me is that the Registry certified this car, while noting so=
me
> major anomalies (the carbs, for instance, looked to be new and didn't hav=
e
> the hand scribing like my car).
>
> The other thing that interested me is, how do you value this car? Yes,
> it's a very nice car, probably a good driver but, IMO, its value *should*
> be less than a comparably restored, original BN1 or BN2. And, what did th=
e
> previous owner know, or should have known about this car? How do you
> present it for sale; as a BN1 with 'M bits?' It would need the proverbial
> asterisk alongside the page title.
>
> Bob
>
>
>
> On 12/14/2023 8:15 AM, S and T Miller wrote:
>
> If you were following it recently, you might find my observations
> interesting. So I went down to Michael's motor cars to help him determin=
e
> if the 100m indeed has a BN1 chassis. Here is what I found.
>
> It has the BN1 inner fenders with the rolled pressings. It has the BN1
> front brake hose frame mount the is less pronounced welded BN1 bracket, a=
s
> the later cars have a bolted on bracket. The front shock towers have no
> evidence of being replaced and show the factory welds. The gearbox mount
> shows non-original/factory welds as if it were replaced to accommodate th=
e
> BN2 mount.
>
> What I found most interesting is that where a BN1 has two OD relays
> mounted under the dash, it took shining a light it different directions t=
o
> just make out the slight evidence of filled holes (4 of then for the two
> relays). And I was able to reach inside the vent just below that area wit=
h
> my fingers and feel the welds and welding wire that was used to fill thos=
e
> 4 holes. I can tell you someone took great care to try and make those hol=
es
> seem as they never existed. Along with that, where a BN2 would have the
> single OD relay attached to the firewall with machine screws screwed into
> welded captive nuts on the firewall, you can see plain sheet screws were
> used to mount it in what would be a BN2 relay position.
>
> I also feel the engine tag is a repo because of the lighter stamping.
> Originals tend to have the numbers/ letters stamped with a deeper end
> result. I took my repo engine tag along to compare, and they appeared
> identical in the stampings. The body/ bath tag and VIN plate appear
> original. Now that doesn't mean that the engine isn't the correct M engin=
e,
> because there could be many reasons why the engine tag was replaced. Anyo=
ne
> who drove a stock 100 compared to a 100M can attest to the difference in
> power, and Mike stated that it indeed has that M power.
>
> The boot lid shows no evidence of the stay bracket being swapped off
> another lid, and if you look closely you can see that the boot shows some
> previous age/life. I'd believe it to be original. I could not make out an=
y
> evidence of the bonnet number being sliced in from a M bonnet, but I will
> say that the underside of the bonnet seemed suspiciously clean and
> prestine. I couldn't detect any age like the boot, but that would be for
> someone else to decide.
>
> Mike had asked me if the cold air box was original, and I simply don't
> have that experience to know. I have anyways heard if it looks old, it's
> original. It does indeed look to have some age, so?
>
> I feel at some point in this car's life someone went to some effort to tr=
y
> and conceal that these 100M parts were reinstalled on a BN1 chassis.
> Another interesting note is that there was an attempt to fill the holes
> where a BN1 chassis plate is fitted on the frame rail. Perhaps the person
> didn't realize that the holes continued over to the BN2's, and thought th=
ey
> were erasing evidence of a BN1 chassis?
>
> With all that said, Mike is simply trying to represent the car correctly.
> The car is a very nice car! Paint is very nice, car is straight, and gaps
> look good. Interior is very nice, and looks to be a very good car all
> around. I didn't drive the car, but Mike has years of experience under hi=
s
> belt, so I'd trust his opinions on that. With the quality of the
> restoration, it is surprising that the front frame to shroud brackets we=
re
> not welded to the frame. Chrome looks good, and I'd think winning some
> trophies at a popular vote car would not be an issue.
>
>
> The Millers
>
> "Always drive them, but remember each drive in an antique car is a test
> drive."
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
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>
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
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>
>
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<div dir=3D"ltr">This is all hypothesis based on speculation so take it wit=
h that caveat.=C2=A0 Let's say one had a rusty factory 100M that was so=
bad it needed a new frame.=C2=A0 How hard would it be to transfer the 100M=
body parts over to a solid BN1 chassis along with the oh-so-valuable chass=
is plate? The 100M Registry seems to focus mostly on the original body part=
s and cockpit surrounds to certify a car. Even cars with non-original engin=
es have been registered. I'm pretty certain Kent Lacy's Nasty M was=
on the registry. So is the BaT car still an M?=C2=A0 Some pretty valuable =
race cars have been crashed and fitted with=C2=A0new chassis and still brin=
g big money at auction.=C2=A0<div><br></div><div>To me, what makes an M an =
M is the motor.=C2=A0 If an M no longer has its original motor, or equal re=
placement, it has lost its character as an M. Otherwise, it's a BN2 wit=
h a louvered hood. It's almost like if a Sunbeam Tiger blew its motor a=
nd it was replaced with an Alpine motor. Sure, it's got the right seria=
l number on the unibody, but it's not much of a Tiger anymore. The BaT =
car with what appears to be non-original carbs and distributor caused me co=
ncern. Who would remove those from an original M motor? C'mon 100M sell=
ers, pop the valve cover, remove the rockers and put a dial indicator on th=
e pushrods so we can see if there is still a 100M cam in the lump!</div><di=
v><div><br></div><div>Happy Healeydays,</div><div>Rick Neville</div></div><=
/div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">O=
n Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 1:05=E2=80=AFPM Bob Spidell <<a href=3D"mailto:bs=
pidell@comcast.net">bspidell@comcast.net</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquot=
e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px s=
olid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><u></u>
=20
=20
=20
<div>
Excellent report, thank you. <br>
<br>
I was one of the commenters on BaT--I joined BaT to comment--but,
since I have a BN2/100M I'm not familiar with BN1 differences and
could only point out obvious differences with my car (which was
completely original as far as I can tell, except for extensive body
work). One thing that was somewhat disturbing to me is that the
Registry certified this car, while noting some major anomalies (the
carbs, for instance, looked to be new and didn't have the hand
scribing like my car). <br>
<br>
The other thing that interested me is, how do you value this car?
Yes, it's a very nice car, probably a good driver but, IMO, its
value <i>should</i> be less than a comparably restored, original
BN1 or BN2. And, what did the previous owner know, or should have
known about this car? How do you present it for sale; as a BN1 with
'M bits?' It would need the proverbial asterisk alongside the p=
age
title.<br>
<br>
Bob<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div>On 12/14/2023 8:15 AM, S and T Miller
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
=20
<div style=3D"font-family:inherit;font-size:inherit;color:inherit;bac=
kground-color:transparent">
<div style=3D"box-sizing:content-box;margin:0px">If you were
following it recently,=C2=A0 you might find my observations
interesting.=C2=A0 So I went down to Michael's motor cars to =
help
him determine if the 100m indeed has a BN1 chassis. Here is
what I found.</div>
<div style=3D"box-sizing:content-box;margin:0px"><br style=3D"box-s=
izing:content-box">
</div>
<div style=3D"box-sizing:content-box;margin:0px">It has the BN1
inner fenders with the rolled pressings. It has the BN1 front
brake hose frame mount the is less pronounced welded BN1
bracket, as the later cars have a bolted on bracket. The front
shock towers have no evidence of being replaced and show the
factory welds. The gearbox mount shows non-original/factory
welds as if it were replaced to accommodate the BN2 mount.=C2=A0<=
/div>
<div style=3D"box-sizing:content-box;margin:0px"><br style=3D"box-s=
izing:content-box">
</div>
<div style=3D"box-sizing:content-box;margin:0px">What I found
most interesting is that where a BN1 has two OD relays mounted
under the dash, it took shining a light it different
directions to just make out the slight evidence of filled
holes (4 of then for the two relays). And I was able to reach
inside the vent just below that area with my fingers and feel
the welds and welding wire that was used to fill those 4
holes. I can tell you someone took great care to try and make
those holes seem as they never existed.=C2=A0 Along with that,
where a BN2 would have the single OD relay attached to the
firewall with machine screws screwed into welded captive nuts
on the firewall,=C2=A0 you can see plain sheet screws were used t=
o
mount it in what would be a BN2 relay position.=C2=A0</div>
<div style=3D"box-sizing:content-box;margin:0px"><br style=3D"box-s=
izing:content-box">
</div>
<div style=3D"box-sizing:content-box;margin:0px">I also feel
the engine tag is a repo because of the lighter stamping.
Originals tend to have the numbers/ letters stamped with a
deeper end result.=C2=A0 I took my repo engine tag along to
compare, and they appeared identical in the stampings. The
body/ bath tag and VIN plate appear original. Now that doesn'=
t
mean that the engine isn't the correct M engine, because ther=
e
could be many reasons why the engine tag was replaced. Anyone
who drove a stock 100 compared to a 100M can attest to the
difference in power, and Mike stated that it indeed has that M
power.=C2=A0</div>
<div style=3D"box-sizing:content-box;margin:0px"><br style=3D"box-s=
izing:content-box">
</div>
<div style=3D"box-sizing:content-box;margin:0px">The boot lid
shows no evidence of the stay bracket being swapped off
another lid, and if you look closely you can see that the boot
shows some previous age/life. I'd believe it to be original. =
I
could not make out any evidence of the bonnet number being
sliced in from a M bonnet, but I will say that the underside
of the bonnet seemed suspiciously clean and prestine. I
couldn't detect any age like the boot, but that would be for
someone else to decide.=C2=A0</div>
<div style=3D"box-sizing:content-box;margin:0px"><br style=3D"box-s=
izing:content-box">
</div>
<div style=3D"box-sizing:content-box;margin:0px">Mike had asked
me if the cold air box was original,=C2=A0 and I simply don't=
have
that experience to know. I have anyways heard if it looks old,
it's original.=C2=A0 It does indeed look to have some age, so=
?</div>
<div style=3D"box-sizing:content-box;margin:0px"><br style=3D"box-s=
izing:content-box">
</div>
<div style=3D"box-sizing:content-box;margin:0px">I feel at some
point in this car's life someone went to some effort to try
and conceal that these 100M parts were reinstalled on a BN1
chassis. Another interesting note is that there was an attempt
to fill the holes where a BN1 chassis plate is fitted on the
frame rail. Perhaps the person didn't realize that the holes
continued over to the BN2's, and thought they were erasing
evidence of a BN1 chassis?=C2=A0</div>
<div style=3D"box-sizing:content-box;margin:0px"><br style=3D"box-s=
izing:content-box">
</div>
<div style=3D"box-sizing:content-box;margin:0px">With all that
said, Mike is simply trying to represent the car correctly.
The car is a very nice car! Paint is very nice, car is
straight, and gaps look good. Interior is very nice, and looks
to be a very good car all around. I didn't drive the car, but
Mike has years of experience under his belt, so I'd trust his
opinions on that. With the quality of the restoration,=C2=A0 it i=
s
surprising that the front frame to shroud brackets were not
welded to the frame. Chrome looks good, and I'd think winning
some trophies at a popular vote car would not be an issue.=C2=A0<=
/div>
<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The Millers<br>
=C2=A0<br>
"Always drive them, but remember each drive in an antique car =
is
a test drive."<br>
</div>
<span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">
</span>
<pre></pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
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