Bill, I think you hit the most points that are common to many of the others,
so if you don't mind, I'd like to use your note as a basis for replies, and
thoughts. I'll put them down through the note, a bit harder to read, but
they link to the thought at hand.
Many are not reading what I wrote. I didn't write "it has to have a history
when it was new". I wrote it should have been a race car in a real series.
That doesn't mean a '59 TR3 had to race E/Prod in 1959. It could have raced
E/Prod in 1974 or 1980. But it should have raced.
----- Original Message -----
From: <WSpohn4@aol.com>
To: <mcobine@earthlink.net>; <JWoesvra@aol.com>; <shiples@home.com>
Cc: <vintage-race@autox.team.net>
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2001 2:22 PM
Subject: Re: Race Spec Roll Bars
> In a message dated 09/07/01 11:01:30 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> mcobine@earthlink.net writes:
>
>
> > There are lots of cars that their entire racing career is in
> > the '90s as a vintage car. They have never raced in any real series.
Can't
> > find a vintage racer? What the heck, let's build one from scratch.
> >
> > Am I the only one who thinks this doesn't quite click with the original
> > intent of vintage racing?
> >
>
> While I understand your point, and sympathise with your feeling, to a
degree,
> at least, there are some problems with the updating issue.
>
> First, if you only allow cars that raced in the 'good old days', you
> instantly put a premium on the value of those cars that can show bona fide
> history, as opposed to an old car that is newly converted to a race car.
>
Yes and no. First, isn't part of the idea to show that these cars are
valuable? I don't mean use them in place of portfolios like the late '80s
and early '90s, but they aren't a old used up piece of junk that should be
scrapped but rather a valuable car that needs to be admired for what it is,
a piece of history, even if that history is John Doe's club racing at
Wentzville or at Gainesville International.
Second, this "premium" price isn't that big of a deal. If you are looking
at F5000s or old Can Am cars, you are already in the big, big bucks. And
are you really going to counterfeit one of them, anyway?
In the more common race car / vintage car area, we are talking common sports
cars, like old MGs, TRs, and especially Corvettes. The prices really aren't
that crazy, and they really aren't that scarce. If you look across the web,
you'll find plenty. Go to http://www.ebaymotors.com/ and do a search on
"race car" and you'd be amazed at how many come up. Then there are lots of
them on SCCA regions' websites and in their newsletters. There are often
old small Prod cars and at prices starting at a couple of thousand. Here
are just a few of the many.
http://www.cfrscca.org/classifieds.html G Prod Spitfire
http://atl-scca.org/winning.htm old Prod cars, 71 FSV,
http://www.h-production-scca.com/cars.htm lots of Prod cars
http://racecarexchange.com/ free classifieds for racers by racers, and
loaded with cars.
http://members.aol.com/s2scca/breist.html Washington DC ads
While the price is a bit higher, you don't have to build a race car. You
usually have only to clean up the cosmetics, and make it pretty again. and
you already get a lot of the go-fast parts that you a) can't find today, or
b) can't afford today.
> Another problem is a subset of that issue - what date do you choose for
the
> good old days. Many cars in the hands of amateur racers did not start
their
> competition careers until several years after they were produced. A 1962
> TR-3, for instance, was too expensive for many club racers to buy new and
> convert to a race car, but many were converted in the late 60s and early
70s.
>
My point exactly, which has led me into many clashes. My car is a legit
club racer, built in the early '70s. However, it is a '66. I do not want
to prepare it to '66 rules, as it never ran that way, it ran as '70-'72
rules preparation and then as later rules changes it changed more. Now if
it had been a famous racer of the '72 LeMans or '72 Daytona 24 Hours or
similar, no one would complain. But as a lowly club racer, they all
complain it should be set to '66 rules.
And that should be a choice, to run the rules when new, or the rules when
first raced or the rules of its most famous period.
> Next issue - safety. While I am generally in favour of sensible updating
of
> safety regs, the question comes up as to whether a car that ran under the
old
> rules, in period, must be updated.
>
> One of the easiest examples is roll bars. Should those of us that race
open
> sports cars from the 50s and 60s be forced to install roll cages? While I
> would never argue that it would not increase safety, I would nevertheless
be
> loathe to install one in my MGA, for instance. Not such a problem in the
TVR,
> except maybe to leave space for a generously proportioned driver to
somehow
> crawl into the bloody thing through the already narrow doors.
>
Now if it is a real race car from 1955 or 1959 or 1963 or ???, then it
should not be a problem in that it would be grandfathered in as that is its
original roll bar, or a replacement of the original for safety reasons due
to aging of the tubing.
But if it is a new car, one that never raced before, then I can't see
allowing old rules. It never happened back in the '50s, in the '60s, the
'70s, or the '80s by any reputable racing organization. Why should it
happen today?
> I don't quite know how to react to your example of Grand Sport Corvettes.
I
> tend to agree that if the car was not built as one, you should not be able
to
> turn it into a replica - you certainly wouldn't have been able to do that
in
> SCCA or what have you, in the years following the appearance of the real
> thing.
>
Maybe the Grand Sports are too famous to be examples, but there are many of
those kit cars built today to vintage race. Maybe we should do replicas of
'67 or '69 Sunoco Camaros? If I take my '66 and make it a replica of
penske's '66 that ran the Daytona 24 Hours, then can I run the flared
fenders that he did?
> But I'm not sure how I feel about someone that, for example, comes across
an
> old Sprinzel nose for a Bugeye, and wants to use it on his car. That's at
> least a bit different from someone that wants to build a replica of the
> Lemans Triumph TRS cars using a TR-4 chassis as a base.
>
> Then there are updates you want to have people use (rollbars and belts)
> versus those that some organisations do not (modern and more reliable
> ignition systems, Accusumps, etc.)
>
> No easy answers out there, IMHO.
>
> Bill Spohn
Definitely not.
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