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Buck, thanks for chiming in. I totally forgot to mention the bump steer iss=
ue, that is a great story re: Mike Jones.=C2=A0Take careMike
-----Original Message-----
From: Buck Trippel <bucktrippel@verizon.net>
To: 'Michael Wood' <mwood24020@aol.com>; garywinblad@comcast.net; blance598=
@gmail.com
Cc: tigers@autox.team.net
Sent: Fri, Oct 1, 2021 11:00 am
Subject: RE: [Tigers] Front suspension
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I have a lot on my plate right now so this will have to be brief. I=E2=80=
=99m replying to Mike=E2=80=99s earlier post and not Jim=E2=80=99s mods.
=C2=A0
In Mike Jones=E2=80=99 talk a few weeks ago at SUNI he described some of th=
e challenges that he, Kevin Beattie and the Rootes engineers encountered wh=
en they put the Tiger into production. He mentioned that they knew that the=
rack position made anti-Ackerman an inevitable problem, but they were unde=
r a deadline to put the car into immediate production. They did design a MK=
2 version would have larger 14=E2=80=9Dwheels which could accommodate longe=
r steering arms to lessen the problem as well as the larger 3-puck Girling =
brake package used on the Cobras and Austin Martins on all corners. But by =
the time the Mk2 was produced these were eliminated and only Mike=E2=80=99s=
relocation of the Panhard bar mount survived, chassis-wise.
=C2=A0
So we all know the Tiger=E2=80=99s Ackerman is terrible. It also suffers fr=
om a complete lack of camber gain. And its bump steer is horrendous. (We=E2=
=80=99ve carefully measured all of them.) One discovery that prompted a chu=
ckle was that when the Tiger takes a set in a hard turn the bump steer is s=
o bad it actually corrects some of the Ackerman problems. I pointed this ou=
t to Mike and expected him to identify an engineer who came up with this en=
tirely creative band-aid but instead he said he was sure it was completely =
unintentional. That immediately let the air out of my balloon.
=C2=A0
As far as aftermarket fixes, Dale=E2=80=99s numbers look great for ackerman=
, camber gain and bump steer. I=E2=80=99ve driven Tigers with Hokansen=E2=
=80=99s mod and they drive nice but I never have seen his numbers.
=C2=A0
As far as mods to the stock suspension, the main problem for me is Camber g=
ain. When the chassis rolls it rotates the inside of the tire patches off t=
he pavement. Any real fix needs the ball joints to be an inch or two furthe=
r apart. The Tiger spindle weighs half what a Pinto=E2=80=99s does. It=E2=
=80=99s flimsy in comparison. We have seen enough flexing on the race track=
that I have been scared to space the ball joints further apart. We built a=
spaced a setup and did a one-day test with it at Willow and it worked but =
it now sits on the shelf due to my reluctance to take on more risk.=C2=A0 M=
G arms take a little of the problem away as does milling off the =E2=80=9Cf=
eet=E2=80=9D on the rack but the aftermarket solution of putting the rack u=
nder the motor addresses all those problems. I think Dale is still selling =
his replacement crossmember front suspension but I suspect they will now co=
st you more than $5K.
=C2=A0
As to the electric power steering from Europe, I=E2=80=99ve installed and t=
ested it. It=E2=80=99s fine around town and on twisty roads however I can=
=E2=80=99t get enough caster into a Tiger to make it reasonable to use on t=
he open road. It has too much friction for our cars to overcome it and trac=
k straight on the highway. You have correct constantly. For an hour or two =
that=E2=80=99s OK. It=E2=80=99s so much work that an 8 or 10 hour cross cou=
ntry day became impossible for me. So it now also sets on a shelf in the ga=
rage. I=E2=80=99m expanding the garage.
=20
Buck Trippel=20
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
From: Tigers <tigers-bounces@autox.team.net> On Behalf Of Michael Wood via =
Tigers
Sent: Friday, October 1, 2021 9:37 AM
To: garywinblad@comcast.net; blance598@gmail.com; tigers@autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Tigers] Front suspension
=C2=A0
I'm far from expert...maybe a layman open to experimenting lol=C2=A0
=C2=A0
I think a lot of guys building Mustangs, Camaros etc still do the Shelby dr=
op (relocating the upper control arm downwards). But, I don't know how it w=
ould work on a Tiger, as we run into control arm clearance to unibody issue=
s pretty quickly at the fastener to the rear (if you follow what I'm saying=
) when shimming for negative camber. That clearance becomes even less when =
you start looking at dropping the physical location of the UCA. So, the que=
stion would be whether the negative camber gained in drop would offset the =
loss of ability to shim, I guess. But, yeah, the camber curve should improv=
e.=C2=A0
=C2=A0
Wonder if anyone has done it?
=C2=A0
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: GARY WINBLAD <garywinblad@comcast.net>
To: Michael Wood <mwood24020@aol.com>; blance598@gmail.com <blance598@gmail=
.com>; tigers@autox.team.net <tigers@autox.team.net>
Sent: Fri, Oct 1, 2021 9:23 am
Subject: Re: [Tigers] Front suspension
Mike,=20
Thanks for your expert analysis!=20
Yes, I never did find what Ackerman is best either..=C2=A0 I heard Doane sp=
eak and he said the reverse Ackerman is actually an advantage when you are=
=20
countersteering (what I think he meant).=C2=A0 I wrote a program to figure =
out how it works on the Tiger.=C2=A0 Turns out Ackerman is not really that =
bad until=20
you get to pretty extreme steering angles, so on a big track it isn't reall=
y that bad.=C2=A0 And with initial toe-out dialed in it might not be that b=
ad on a really=20
tight course.=C2=A0 And because of the fulcrum pin issue, I NEVER go full l=
ock anymore, even parking.=20
Yeah camber... why did the lowered a-arm trick seem to work back in the day=
but isn't used anymore?=C2=A0 The GT-350s I have looked at still have it.=
=20
I know it was bad for braking but so is initial negative camber?=20
Heavy steering, why I left my big stock steering wheel.=20
Gary=20
=C2=A0
On 10/01/2021 11:54 AM Michael Wood <mwood24020@aol.com> wrote:=20
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
Gary, I think you nailed it, reverse Ackermann leads to some funky slip ang=
les and strangely heavy steering, particularly felt at low speeds...the fro=
nt tires are literally fighting each other. The fact we all typically add w=
ider wheels makes the steering even heavier (both contact patch to move aro=
und and scrub radius). Finally, maxing out caster with wedges (which I do) =
makes it even worse!=C2=A0=20
The longer MG steering arms help, I've found on cars I've driven so equippe=
d, but I haven't bothered to do on my car. Toe out changes the slip angle a=
nd also helps get the car to turn in, but I only go to toe out (1/4") when =
autocrossing, as toe out also is a great way to kill tires. Besides the poo=
r camber curve, Ackerman is another reason why I run as much negative cambe=
r as possible...if the outside wheel isn't technically aligned to the turn =
radius correctly, at least I can maximize the unaligned contact patch in ro=
ll lol. Funny thing, even the real experts I've read can't seem to agree on=
"Ackermann", because there are so many other variables.=20
I don't know, outside of a custom solution like Dale's or Hokanson's front =
ends, of a real fix. I've just learned to live with heavy steering, but if =
it really is a problem, going to stock width wheels and smaller section wid=
th tires really makes a difference. The electric power steering solution ha=
s gotten to be a pretty easy=C2=A0deal, but that obviously does nothing to =
address the underlying geometry issues.=20
Mike=20
-----Original Message-----=20
From: GARY WINBLAD <garywinblad@comcast.net>=20
To: Lance Beauchamp <blance598@gmail.com>; Tiger List <tigers@autox.team.ne=
t>=20
Sent: Fri, Oct 1, 2021 7:42 am=20
Subject: Re: [Tigers] Front suspension=20
Lance,=20
=C2=A0There are a couple more expensive solutions that might be still avail=
able.=20
Dale did design and make an entire front crossmember/suspension.=C2=A0 It f=
ixed the geometry but was about $5K=20
last I heard, and he might have stopped making them.=20
People (mostly in EU) have put in electric power steering.=C2=A0 It mounts =
up under the dash so it all looks stock,=20
would be great in a parking lot or tight course.=C2=A0 Others have put in c=
onventional hydraulic power steering.=20
Shelby had his guys put in a Miata power rack in his wife's Tiger for insta=
nce.=20
Gary=20
=C2=A0
On 10/01/2021 9:36 AM Lance Beauchamp <blance598@gmail.com> wrote:=20
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
So it is what it is, end of story, thank very much for a really good explan=
ation,=C2=A0 still love the car. Beau=C2=A0=20
=C2=A0
On Thu, Sep 30, 2021, 10:13 PM GARY WINBLAD <garywinblad@comcast.net> wrote=
:=20
HI Lance,=20
Steering geometry is a real problem.=C2=A0 Shelby throwing the rack way out=
in front of the engine was a quick solution.=20
Rootes didn't want to change a Shelby design... so we suffer today.=C2=A0 D=
oane knew it was a problem but he thought=20
Rootes would build a new crossmember.=20
The problem is when you go around a corner, the inside wheel needs to run a=
smaller radius turn than the outside.=20
Toe in on turns or Ackerman geometry is what it is called.=C2=A0 =C2=A0The =
Tiger has reverse Ackerman, the inner wheel turns=20
a larger radius!=C2=A0 When I used to push my Tiger out to my slightly down=
hill driveway it was easier to turn the wheel=20
full lock than to reach down and pull the parking brake... what a great des=
ign Shelby!=20
On a tight autocross course or a parking lot this is really less than ideal=
...=C2=A0 MIKE analysis??=20
On a big course it might not make such a difference though Jim Adams said h=
e had to "toss the Tiger like a sprint=20
car"=C2=A0 (keeping it jumping and sliding rather than be smooth.. I hear t=
hat as...).=20
=C2=A0
Longer MGB steering arms and initial toe-out is the small solution Dale has=
...=20
You may notice, its hard to turn the wheel at slow speeds, especially with =
big sticky tires.=20
But once you go into a fairly tight turn, it becomes easier as both tires l=
ose contact.. and the Tiger goes straight=20
off the corner...=20
=C2=A0
Mike, do I have it anywhere correct?=20
Gary W.=20
=C2=A0
On 09/30/2021 9:55 PM Lance Beauchamp <blance598@gmail.com> wrote:=20
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
You say you spend alot of time on suspension Gary, can you tell me how to m=
ake the Tiger easier to turn at lower speeds, like 15 mph or under. I alway=
s=C2=A0 blame the steering=C2=A0 geometry,=C2=A0 is it all that?=C2=A0 Beau=
=C2=A0=20
_______________________________________________=20
tigers@autox.team.net=20
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers http://autox.team.net/archive=
=20
Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/mwood24020@aol.co=
m=20
------=_Part_695829_146078087.1633134701044
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<div style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;color:b=
lack;"><div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;=
color:black;">Buck, thanks for chiming in. I totally forgot to mention the =
bump steer issue, that is a great story re: Mike Jones. </div><div sty=
le=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:black;">T=
ake care</div><div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz=
e:10pt;color:black;">Mike<br><br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: Bu=
ck Trippel <bucktrippel@verizon.net><br>To: 'Michael Wood' <mwood2=
4020@aol.com>; garywinblad@comcast.net; blance598@gmail.com<br>Cc: tiger=
s@autox.team.net<br>Sent: Fri, Oct 1, 2021 11:00 am<br>Subject: RE: [Tigers=
] Front suspension<br><br></div><div id=3D"yiv7146861405"><style><!--
#yiv7146861405 =20
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--></style><div><div class=3D"yiv7146861405WordSection1"><p class=3D"yiv714=
6861405MsoNormal">I have a lot on my plate right now so this will have to b=
e brief. I=E2=80=99m replying to Mike=E2=80=99s earlier post and not Jim=E2=
=80=99s mods.</p><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"> </p><p class=3D=
"yiv7146861405MsoNormal">In Mike Jones=E2=80=99 talk a few weeks ago at SUN=
I he described some of the challenges that he, Kevin Beattie and the Rootes=
engineers encountered when they put the Tiger into production. He mentione=
d that they knew that the rack position made anti-Ackerman an inevitable pr=
oblem, but they were under a deadline to put the car into immediate product=
ion. They did design a MK2 version would have larger 14=E2=80=9Dwheels whic=
h could accommodate longer steering arms to lessen the problem as well as t=
he larger 3-puck Girling brake package used on the Cobras and Austin Martin=
s on all corners. But by the time the Mk2 was produced these were eliminate=
d and only Mike=E2=80=99s relocation of the Panhard bar mount survived, cha=
ssis-wise.</p><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"> </p><p class=3D"yi=
v7146861405MsoNormal">So we all know the Tiger=E2=80=99s Ackerman is terrib=
le. It also suffers from a complete lack of camber gain. And its bump steer=
is horrendous. (We=E2=80=99ve carefully measured all of them.) One discove=
ry that prompted a chuckle was that when the Tiger takes a set in a hard tu=
rn the bump steer is so bad it actually corrects some of the Ackerman probl=
ems. I pointed this out to Mike and expected him to identify an engineer wh=
o came up with this entirely creative band-aid but instead he said he was s=
ure it was completely unintentional. That immediately let the air out of my=
balloon.</p><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"> </p><p class=3D"yiv=
7146861405MsoNormal">As far as aftermarket fixes, Dale=E2=80=99s numbers lo=
ok great for ackerman, camber gain and bump steer. I=E2=80=99ve driven Tige=
rs with Hokansen=E2=80=99s mod and they drive nice but I never have seen hi=
s numbers.</p><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"> </p><p class=3D"yi=
v7146861405MsoNormal">As far as mods to the stock suspension, the main prob=
lem for me is Camber gain. When the chassis rolls it rotates the inside of =
the tire patches off the pavement. Any real fix needs the ball joints to be=
an inch or two further apart. The Tiger spindle weighs half what a Pinto=
=E2=80=99s does. It=E2=80=99s flimsy in comparison. We have seen enough fle=
xing on the race track that I have been scared to space the ball joints fur=
ther apart. We built a spaced a setup and did a one-day test with it at Wil=
low and it worked but it now sits on the shelf due to my reluctance to take=
on more risk. MG arms take a little of the problem away as does mill=
ing off the =E2=80=9Cfeet=E2=80=9D on the rack but the aftermarket solution=
of putting the rack under the motor addresses all those problems. I think =
Dale is still selling his replacement crossmember front suspension but I su=
spect they will now cost you more than $5K.</p><p class=3D"yiv7146861405Mso=
Normal"> </p><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal">As to the electric p=
ower steering from Europe, I=E2=80=99ve installed and tested it. It=E2=80=
=99s fine around town and on twisty roads however I can=E2=80=99t get enoug=
h caster into a Tiger to make it reasonable to use on the open road. It has=
too much friction for our cars to overcome it and track straight on the hi=
ghway. You have correct constantly. For an hour or two that=E2=80=99s OK. I=
t=E2=80=99s so much work that an 8 or 10 hour cross country day became impo=
ssible for me. So it now also sets on a shelf in the garage. I=E2=80=99m ex=
panding the garage.</p><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"> </p><p class=3D=
"yiv7146861405MsoNormal">Buck Trippel </p><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNorma=
l"> </p><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"> </p><div class=3D"=
yiv7146861405yqt4357082656" id=3D"yiv7146861405yqt41781"><div style=3D"bord=
er:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;"><p class=
=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Tigers <tigers-bounces@autox.te=
am.net> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Michael Wood via Tigers<br clear=3D"none"><b=
>Sent:</b> Friday, October 1, 2021 9:37 AM<br clear=3D"none"><b>To:</b> gar=
ywinblad@comcast.net; blance598@gmail.com; tigers@autox.team.net<br clear=
=3D"none"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Tigers] Front suspension</p></div><p class=
=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"> </p><div><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405M=
soNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:blac=
k;">I'm far from expert...maybe a layman open to experimenting lol </s=
pan></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;"> </span></p></div><d=
iv><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font=
-family:sans-serif;color:black;">I think a lot of guys building Mustangs, C=
amaros etc still do the Shelby drop (relocating the upper control arm downw=
ards). But, I don't know how it would work on a Tiger, as we run into contr=
ol arm clearance to unibody issues pretty quickly at the fastener to the re=
ar (if you follow what I'm saying) when shimming for negative camber. That =
clearance becomes even less when you start looking at dropping the physical=
location of the UCA. So, the question would be whether the negative camber=
gained in drop would offset the loss of ability to shim, I guess. But, yea=
h, the camber curve should improve. </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"=
yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-se=
rif;color:black;"> </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405Mso=
Normal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;=
">Wonder if anyone has done it?</span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861=
405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:=
black;"> </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;">Mike</sp=
an></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-botto=
m:12.0pt;"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:bla=
ck;"><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">-----Original Message-----<br cl=
ear=3D"none">From: GARY WINBLAD <<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer"=
shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:garywinblad@comcast.net"; target=3D"_blank=
" href=3D"mailto:garywinblad@comcast.net";>garywinblad@comcast.net</a>><b=
r clear=3D"none">To: Michael Wood <<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferre=
r" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:mwood24020@aol.com"; target=3D"_blank" h=
ref=3D"mailto:mwood24020@aol.com";>mwood24020@aol.com</a>>; <a rel=3D"nof=
ollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:blance598@gmail=
.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:blance598@gmail.com";>blance598@gmail=
.com</a> <<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=
=3D"mailto:blance598@gmail.com"; target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:blance598@=
gmail.com">blance598@gmail.com</a>>; <a rel=3D"nofollow noopener norefer=
rer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:tigers@autox.team.net"; target=3D"_bla=
nk" href=3D"mailto:tigers@autox.team.net";>tigers@autox.team.net</a> <<a =
rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:tiger=
s@autox.team.net" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:tigers@autox.team.net";>t=
igers@autox.team.net</a>><br clear=3D"none">Sent: Fri, Oct 1, 2021 9:23 =
am<br clear=3D"none">Subject: Re: [Tigers] Front suspension</span></p></div=
><div id=3D"yiv7146861405"><div><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;">Mike, </=
span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;">Thanks for your expert an=
alysis! </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span sty=
le=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;">Yes, I never di=
d find what Ackerman is best either.. I heard Doane speak and he said=
the reverse Ackerman is actually an advantage when you are </span></p></di=
v><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;=
font-family:sans-serif;color:black;">countersteering (what I think he meant=
). I wrote a program to figure out how it works on the Tiger. T=
urns out Ackerman is not really that bad until </span></p></div><div><p cla=
ss=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:s=
ans-serif;color:black;">you get to pretty extreme steering angles, so on a =
big track it isn't really that bad. And with initial toe-out dialed i=
n it might not be that bad on a really </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yi=
v7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-seri=
f;color:black;">tight course. And because of the fulcrum pin issue, I=
NEVER go full lock anymore, even parking. </span></p></div><div><p class=
=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:san=
s-serif;color:black;">Yeah camber... why did the lowered a-arm trick seem t=
o work back in the day but isn't used anymore? The GT-350s I have loo=
ked at still have it. </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNor=
mal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;">I=
know it was bad for braking but so is initial negative camber? </span></p>=
</div><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.=
0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;">Heavy steering, why I left my big =
stock steering wheel. </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNor=
mal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;">G=
ary </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;"> </span></p=
></div><div id=3D"yiv7146861405yqt43507"><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.=
0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;"><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;">On 10/01/2021 =
11:54 AM Michael Wood <<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"=
rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:mwood24020@aol.com"; target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailt=
o:mwood24020@aol.com">mwood24020@aol.com</a>> wrote: </span></p></div><d=
iv><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font=
-family:sans-serif;color:black;"> </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"y=
iv7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-ser=
if;color:black;"> </span></p></div><div><div><p class=3D"yiv714686140=
5MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:bl=
ack;">Gary, I think you nailed it, reverse Ackermann leads to some funky sl=
ip angles and strangely heavy steering, particularly felt at low speeds...t=
he front tires are literally fighting each other. The fact we all typically=
add wider wheels makes the steering even heavier (both contact patch to mo=
ve around and scrub radius). Finally, maxing out caster with wedges (which =
I do) makes it even worse! </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv71468=
61405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;colo=
r:black;">The longer MG steering arms help, I've found on cars I've driven =
so equipped, but I haven't bothered to do on my car. Toe out changes the sl=
ip angle and also helps get the car to turn in, but I only go to toe out (1=
/4") when autocrossing, as toe out also is a great way to kill tires. Besid=
es the poor camber curve, Ackerman is another reason why I run as much nega=
tive camber as possible...if the outside wheel isn't technically aligned to=
the turn radius correctly, at least I can maximize the unaligned contact p=
atch in roll lol. Funny thing, even the real experts I've read can't seem t=
o agree on "Ackermann", because there are so many other variables. </span><=
/p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;">I don't know, outside of a cust=
om solution like Dale's or Hokanson's front ends, of a real fix. I've just =
learned to live with heavy steering, but if it really is a problem, going t=
o stock width wheels and smaller section width tires really makes a differe=
nce. The electric power steering solution has gotten to be a pretty easy&nb=
sp;deal, but that obviously does nothing to address the underlying geometry=
issues. </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal" style=3D=
"margin-bottom:12.0pt;"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-se=
rif;color:black;">Mike <br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"n=
one">-----Original Message----- <br clear=3D"none">From: GARY WINBLAD <<=
a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:gar=
ywinblad@comcast.net" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:garywinblad@comcast.=
net">garywinblad@comcast.net</a>> <br clear=3D"none">To: Lance Beauchamp=
<<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mail=
to:blance598@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:blance598@gmail.co=
m">blance598@gmail.com</a>>; Tiger List <<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener =
noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:tigers@autox.team.net"; target=
=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:tigers@autox.team.net";>tigers@autox.team.net</a>=
> <br clear=3D"none">Sent: Fri, Oct 1, 2021 7:42 am <br clear=3D"none">S=
ubject: Re: [Tigers] Front suspension </span></p></div><div id=3D"yiv714686=
1405"><div><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;">Lance, </span></p></div><div>=
<p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:sans-serif;color:black;"> There are a couple more expensive solut=
ions that might be still available. </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv71=
46861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;c=
olor:black;">Dale did design and make an entire front crossmember/suspensio=
n. It fixed the geometry but was about $5K </span></p></div><div><p c=
lass=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family=
:sans-serif;color:black;">last I heard, and he might have stopped making th=
em. </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;">People (mostly in=
EU) have put in electric power steering. It mounts up under the dash=
so it all looks stock, </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoN=
ormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;"=
>would be great in a parking lot or tight course. Others have put in =
conventional hydraulic power steering. </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yi=
v7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-seri=
f;color:black;">Shelby had his guys put in a Miata power rack in his wife's=
Tiger for instance. </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNorm=
al"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;">Ga=
ry </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D=
"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;"> </span></p></=
div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;"><div><p cla=
ss=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:s=
ans-serif;color:black;">On 10/01/2021 9:36 AM Lance Beauchamp <<a rel=3D=
"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:blance598@g=
mail.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:blance598@gmail.com";>blance598@g=
mail.com</a>> wrote: </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoN=
ormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;"=
> </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span sty=
le=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;"> </span><=
/p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;">So it is what it is, end of sto=
ry, thank very much for a really good explanation, still love the car=
. Beau </span></p></div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span sty=
le=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;"> </span><=
/p><div><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:1=
0.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;">On Thu, Sep 30, 2021, 10:13 PM G=
ARY WINBLAD <<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymai=
lto=3D"mailto:garywinblad@comcast.net"; target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:gar=
ywinblad@comcast.net">garywinblad@comcast.net</a>> wrote: </span></p></d=
iv><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;"><div><div><p=
class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fami=
ly:sans-serif;color:black;">HI Lance, </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv=
7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif=
;color:black;">Steering geometry is a real problem. Shelby throwing t=
he rack way out in front of the engine was a quick solution. </span></p></d=
iv><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt=
;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;">Rootes didn't want to change a Shelby=
design... so we suffer today. Doane knew it was a problem but he tho=
ught </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;">Rootes would buil=
d a new crossmember. </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNorm=
al"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;">Th=
e problem is when you go around a corner, the inside wheel needs to run a s=
maller radius turn than the outside. </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv7=
146861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;=
color:black;">Toe in on turns or Ackerman geometry is what it is called.&nb=
sp; The Tiger has reverse Ackerman, the inner wheel turns </span></p>=
</div><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.=
0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;">a larger radius! When I used=
to push my Tiger out to my slightly downhill driveway it was easier to tur=
n the wheel </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span=
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;">full lock t=
han to reach down and pull the parking brake... what a great design Shelby!=
</span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;">On a tight autocross c=
ourse or a parking lot this is really less than ideal... MIKE analysi=
s?? </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;">On a big course i=
t might not make such a difference though Jim Adams said he had to "toss th=
e Tiger like a sprint </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNor=
mal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;">c=
ar" (keeping it jumping and sliding rather than be smooth.. I hear th=
at as...). </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;"> </spa=
n></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;">Longer MGB steering arms and=
initial toe-out is the small solution Dale has... </span></p></div><div><p=
class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fami=
ly:sans-serif;color:black;">You may notice, its hard to turn the wheel at s=
low speeds, especially with big sticky tires. </span></p></div><div><p clas=
s=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sa=
ns-serif;color:black;">But once you go into a fairly tight turn, it becomes=
easier as both tires lose contact.. and the Tiger goes straight </span></p=
></div><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10=
.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;">off the corner... </span></p></di=
v><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;=
font-family:sans-serif;color:black;"> </span></p></div><div><p class=
=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:san=
s-serif;color:black;">Mike, do I have it anywhere correct? </span></p></div=
><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;f=
ont-family:sans-serif;color:black;">Gary W. </span></p></div><div><p class=
=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:san=
s-serif;color:black;"> </span></p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-t=
op:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;"><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;">On 09/30/=
2021 9:55 PM Lance Beauchamp <<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" sh=
ape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:blance598@gmail.com"; target=3D"_blank" href=
=3D"mailto:blance598@gmail.com";>blance598@gmail.com</a>> wrote: </span><=
/p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;"> </span></p></div><div><p=
class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fami=
ly:sans-serif;color:black;"> </span></p></div><div><p class=3D"yiv714=
6861405MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;co=
lor:black;">You say you spend alot of time on suspension Gary, can you tell=
me how to make the Tiger easier to turn at lower speeds, like 15 mph or un=
der. I always blame the steering geometry, is it all that=
? Beau </span></p></div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div><=
/blockquote></div></div><p class=3D"yiv7146861405MsoNormal" style=3D"margin=
-bottom:12.0pt;"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;col=
or:black;">_______________________________________________ <br clear=3D"non=
e"><br clear=3D"none"><a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect=
" ymailto=3D"mailto:tigers@autox.team.net"; target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto=
:tigers@autox.team.net">tigers@autox.team.net</a> <br clear=3D"none"><br cl=
ear=3D"none">Donate: <a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect"=
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