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boundary="----=_Part_604632_1308470821.1633106227480"
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I'm far from expert...maybe a layman open to experimenting lol=C2=A0
I think a lot of guys building Mustangs, Camaros etc still do the Shelby dr=
op (relocating the upper control arm downwards). But, I don't know how it w=
ould work on a Tiger, as we run into control arm clearance to unibody issue=
s pretty quickly at the fastener to the rear (if you follow what I'm saying=
) when shimming for negative camber. That clearance becomes even less when =
you start looking at dropping the physical location of the UCA. So, the que=
stion would be whether the negative camber gained in drop would offset the =
loss of ability to shim, I guess. But, yeah, the camber curve should improv=
e.=C2=A0
Wonder if anyone has done it?
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: GARY WINBLAD <garywinblad@comcast.net>
To: Michael Wood <mwood24020@aol.com>; blance598@gmail.com <blance598@gmail=
.com>; tigers@autox.team.net <tigers@autox.team.net>
Sent: Fri, Oct 1, 2021 9:23 am
Subject: Re: [Tigers] Front suspension
Mike, Thanks for your expert analysis! Yes, I never did find what Ack=
erman is best either..=C2=A0 I heard Doane speak and he said the reverse Ac=
kerman is actually an advantage when you are countersteering (what I thin=
k he meant).=C2=A0 I wrote a program to figure out how it works on the Tige=
r.=C2=A0 Turns out Ackerman is not really that bad until you get to prett=
y extreme steering angles, so on a big track it isn't really that bad.=C2=
=A0 And with initial toe-out dialed in it might not be that bad on a really=
tight course.=C2=A0 And because of the fulcrum pin issue, I NEVER go ful=
l lock anymore, even parking. Yeah camber... why did the lowered a-arm tr=
ick seem to work back in the day but isn't used anymore?=C2=A0 The GT-350s =
I have looked at still have it. I know it was bad for braking but so is i=
nitial negative camber? Heavy steering, why I left my big stock steering =
wheel. Gary =20
=20
On 10/01/2021 11:54 AM Michael Wood <mwood24020@aol.com> wrote: =20
=20
Gary, I think you nailed it, reverse Ackermann leads to some funky slip=
angles and strangely heavy steering, particularly felt at low speeds...the=
front tires are literally fighting each other. The fact we all typically a=
dd wider wheels makes the steering even heavier (both contact patch to move=
around and scrub radius). Finally, maxing out caster with wedges (which I =
do) makes it even worse!=C2=A0 The longer MG steering arms help, I've fou=
nd on cars I've driven so equipped, but I haven't bothered to do on my car.=
Toe out changes the slip angle and also helps get the car to turn in, but =
I only go to toe out (1/4") when autocrossing, as toe out also is a great w=
ay to kill tires. Besides the poor camber curve, Ackerman is another reason=
why I run as much negative camber as possible...if the outside wheel isn't=
technically aligned to the turn radius correctly, at least I can maximize =
the unaligned contact patch in roll lol. Funny thing, even the real experts=
I've read can't seem to agree on "Ackermann", because there are so many ot=
her variables. I don't know, outside of a custom solution like Dale's or =
Hokanson's front ends, of a real fix. I've just learned to live with heavy =
steering, but if it really is a problem, going to stock width wheels and sm=
aller section width tires really makes a difference. The electric power ste=
ering solution has gotten to be a pretty easy=C2=A0deal, but that obviously=
does nothing to address the underlying geometry issues. Mike=20
=20
=20
-----Original Message-----=20
From: GARY WINBLAD <garywinblad@comcast.net>=20
To: Lance Beauchamp <blance598@gmail.com>; Tiger List <tigers@autox.team.ne=
t>=20
Sent: Fri, Oct 1, 2021 7:42 am=20
Subject: Re: [Tigers] Front suspension=20
=20
Lance, =C2=A0There are a couple more expensive solutions that might =
be still available. Dale did design and make an entire front crossmember/=
suspension.=C2=A0 It fixed the geometry but was about $5K last I heard, a=
nd he might have stopped making them. People (mostly in EU) have put in e=
lectric power steering.=C2=A0 It mounts up under the dash so it all looks s=
tock, would be great in a parking lot or tight course.=C2=A0 Others have =
put in conventional hydraulic power steering. Shelby had his guys put in =
a Miata power rack in his wife's Tiger for instance. Gary =20
=20
On 10/01/2021 9:36 AM Lance Beauchamp <blance598@gmail.com> wrote: =20
=20
So it is what it is, end of story, thank very much for a really good exp=
lanation,=C2=A0 still love the car. Beau=C2=A0 =20
On Thu, Sep 30, 2021, 10:13 PM GARY WINBLAD <garywinblad@comcast.net> wr=
ote:=20
=20
HI Lance, Steering geometry is a real problem.=C2=A0 Shelby throwing =
the rack way out in front of the engine was a quick solution. Rootes didn=
't want to change a Shelby design... so we suffer today.=C2=A0 Doane knew i=
t was a problem but he thought Rootes would build a new crossmember. Th=
e problem is when you go around a corner, the inside wheel needs to run a s=
maller radius turn than the outside. Toe in on turns or Ackerman geometry=
is what it is called.=C2=A0 =C2=A0The Tiger has reverse Ackerman, the inne=
r wheel turns a larger radius!=C2=A0 When I used to push my Tiger out to =
my slightly downhill driveway it was easier to turn the wheel full lock t=
han to reach down and pull the parking brake... what a great design Shelby!=
On a tight autocross course or a parking lot this is really less than id=
eal...=C2=A0 MIKE analysis?? On a big course it might not make such a dif=
ference though Jim Adams said he had to "toss the Tiger like a sprint car=
"=C2=A0 (keeping it jumping and sliding rather than be smooth.. I hear that=
as...). =20
Longer MGB steering arms and initial toe-out is the small solution Dale =
has... You may notice, its hard to turn the wheel at slow speeds, especia=
lly with big sticky tires. But once you go into a fairly tight turn, it b=
ecomes easier as both tires lose contact.. and the Tiger goes straight of=
f the corner... =20
Mike, do I have it anywhere correct? Gary W. =20
=20
On 09/30/2021 9:55 PM Lance Beauchamp <blance598@gmail.com> wrote: =20
=20
You say you spend alot of time on suspension Gary, can you tell me how t=
o make the Tiger easier to turn at lower speeds, like 15 mph or under. I al=
ways=C2=A0 blame the steering=C2=A0 geometry,=C2=A0 is it all that?=C2=A0 B=
eau=C2=A0 =20
=20
=20
_______________________________________________=20
=20
tigers@autox.team.net=20
=20
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers http://autox.team.net/archive=
=20
=20
Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/mwood24020@aol.co=
m=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
------=_Part_604632_1308470821.1633106227480
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<div style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;color:b=
lack;"><div style=3D"font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10=
pt; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f; font-size: 10pt; color: black;">I'm far from expert...maybe a layman ope=
n to experimenting lol </div><div style=3D"font-family: arial,helvetic=
a,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-family=
: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; color: black;"><br></div><di=
v style=3D"font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; color:=
black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-si=
ze: 10pt; color: black;">I think a lot of guys building Mustangs, Camaros e=
tc still do the Shelby drop (relocating the upper control arm downwards). B=
ut, I don't know how it would work on a Tiger, as we run into control arm c=
learance to unibody issues pretty quickly at the fastener to the rear (if y=
ou follow what I'm saying) when shimming for negative camber. That clearanc=
e becomes even less when you start looking at dropping the physical locatio=
n of the UCA. So, the question would be whether the negative camber gained =
in drop would offset the loss of ability to shim, I guess. But, yeah, the c=
amber curve should improve. </div><div style=3D"font-family: arial,hel=
vetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-f=
amily: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; color: black;"><br></di=
v><div style=3D"font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; c=
olor: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; fo=
nt-size: 10pt; color: black;">Wonder if anyone has done it?</div><div style=
=3D"font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; color: black;=
" data-mce-style=3D"font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10p=
t; color: black;"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family: arial,helvetica,sans=
-serif; font-size: 10pt; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-family: aria=
l,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; color: black;">Mike</div><div styl=
e=3D"font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; color: black=
;" data-mce-style=3D"font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10=
pt; color: black;"><br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: GARY WINBLAD=
<garywinblad@comcast.net><br>To: Michael Wood <mwood24020@aol.com=
>; blance598@gmail.com <blance598@gmail.com>; tigers@autox.team.ne=
t <tigers@autox.team.net><br>Sent: Fri, Oct 1, 2021 9:23 am<br>Subjec=
t: Re: [Tigers] Front suspension<br><br></div><div id=3D"yiv1610308570"><di=
v>
<div>
Mike,
</div>
<div class=3D"yiv1610308570default-style">
Thanks for your expert analysis!
</div>
<div class=3D"yiv1610308570default-style">
Yes, I never did find what Ackerman is best either.. I heard Doane=
speak and he said the reverse Ackerman is actually an advantage when you a=
re
</div>
<div class=3D"yiv1610308570default-style">
countersteering (what I think he meant). I wrote a program to figu=
re out how it works on the Tiger. Turns out Ackerman is not really th=
at bad until
</div>
<div class=3D"yiv1610308570default-style">
you get to pretty extreme steering angles, so on a big track it isn't re=
ally that bad. And with initial toe-out dialed in it might not be tha=
t bad on a really
</div>
<div class=3D"yiv1610308570default-style">
tight course. And because of the fulcrum pin issue, I NEVER go ful=
l lock anymore, even parking.
</div>
<div class=3D"yiv1610308570default-style">
Yeah camber... why did the lowered a-arm trick seem to work back in the =
day but isn't used anymore? The GT-350s I have looked at still have i=
t.
</div>
<div class=3D"yiv1610308570default-style">
I know it was bad for braking but so is initial negative camber?
</div>
<div class=3D"yiv1610308570default-style">
Heavy steering, why I left my big stock steering wheel.
</div>
<div class=3D"yiv1610308570default-style">
Gary
</div>
<div class=3D"yiv1610308570default-style">
<br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<div class=3D"yiv1610308570yqt4128808675" id=3D"yiv1610308570yqt43507"><b=
lockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>
On 10/01/2021 11:54 AM Michael Wood <mwood24020@aol.com> wrote:
</div>
<div>
<br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<div>
<br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<div style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif=
; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: arial, hel=
vetica, sans-serif; color: black;">
<div style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 10p=
t; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-ser=
if; font-size: 10pt; color: black;">
Gary, I think you nailed it, reverse Ackermann leads to some funky sli=
p angles and strangely heavy steering, particularly felt at low speeds...th=
e front tires are literally fighting each other. The fact we all typically =
add wider wheels makes the steering even heavier (both contact patch to mov=
e around and scrub radius). Finally, maxing out caster with wedges (which I=
do) makes it even worse!
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 10p=
t; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-ser=
if; font-size: 10pt; color: black;">
The longer MG steering arms help, I've found on cars I've driven so eq=
uipped, but I haven't bothered to do on my car. Toe out changes the slip an=
gle and also helps get the car to turn in, but I only go to toe out (1/4") =
when autocrossing, as toe out also is a great way to kill tires. Besides th=
e poor camber curve, Ackerman is another reason why I run as much negative =
camber as possible...if the outside wheel isn't technically aligned to the =
turn radius correctly, at least I can maximize the unaligned contact patch =
in roll lol. Funny thing, even the real experts I've read can't seem to agr=
ee on "Ackermann", because there are so many other variables.
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 10p=
t; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-ser=
if; font-size: 10pt; color: black;">
I don't know, outside of a custom solution like Dale's or Hokanson's f=
ront ends, of a real fix. I've just learned to live with heavy steering, bu=
t if it really is a problem, going to stock width wheels and smaller sectio=
n width tires really makes a difference. The electric power steering soluti=
on has gotten to be a pretty easy deal, but that obviously does nothin=
g to address the underlying geometry issues.
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 10p=
t; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-ser=
if; font-size: 10pt; color: black;">
Mike
<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">-----Original Message-----
<br clear=3D"none">From: GARY WINBLAD <garywinblad@comcast.net>
<br clear=3D"none">To: Lance Beauchamp <blance598@gmail.com>; Ti=
ger List <tigers@autox.team.net>
<br clear=3D"none">Sent: Fri, Oct 1, 2021 7:42 am
<br clear=3D"none">Subject: Re: [Tigers] Front suspension
<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<div id=3D"yiv1610308570">
<div>
<div>
Lance,
</div>
<div class=3D"yiv1610308570default-style">
There are a couple more expensive solutions that might be stil=
l available.
</div>
<div class=3D"yiv1610308570default-style">
Dale did design and make an entire front crossmember/suspension.&nbs=
p; It fixed the geometry but was about $5K
</div>
<div class=3D"yiv1610308570default-style">
last I heard, and he might have stopped making them.
</div>
<div class=3D"yiv1610308570default-style">
People (mostly in EU) have put in electric power steering. It =
mounts up under the dash so it all looks stock,
</div>
<div class=3D"yiv1610308570default-style">
would be great in a parking lot or tight course. Others have p=
ut in conventional hydraulic power steering.
</div>
<div class=3D"yiv1610308570default-style">
Shelby had his guys put in a Miata power rack in his wife's Tiger fo=
r instance.
</div>
<div class=3D"yiv1610308570default-style">
Gary
</div>
<div class=3D"yiv1610308570default-style">
<br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>
On 10/01/2021 9:36 AM Lance Beauchamp <blance598@gmail.com> w=
rote:
</div>
<div>
<br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<div>
<br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<div>
So it is what it is, end of story, thank very much for a really goo=
d explanation, still love the car. Beau
</div>
<br clear=3D"none">
<div class=3D"yiv1610308570gmail_quote">
<div class=3D"yiv1610308570gmail_attr" dir=3D"ltr">
On Thu, Sep 30, 2021, 10:13 PM GARY WINBLAD <<a rel=3D"nofollow=
noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:garywinblad@comcast.=
net" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:garywinblad@comcast.net";>garywinblad@=
comcast.net</a>> wrote:=20
<br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<blockquote>
<u></u>
<div>
<div>
HI Lance,
</div>
<div>
Steering geometry is a real problem. Shelby throwing the r=
ack way out in front of the engine was a quick solution.
</div>
<div>
Rootes didn't want to change a Shelby design... so we suffer tod=
ay. Doane knew it was a problem but he thought
</div>
<div>
Rootes would build a new crossmember.
</div>
<div>
The problem is when you go around a corner, the inside wheel nee=
ds to run a smaller radius turn than the outside.
</div>
<div>
Toe in on turns or Ackerman geometry is what it is called. =
The Tiger has reverse Ackerman, the inner wheel turns
</div>
<div>
a larger radius! When I used to push my Tiger out to my sl=
ightly downhill driveway it was easier to turn the wheel
</div>
<div>
full lock than to reach down and pull the parking brake... what =
a great design Shelby!
</div>
<div>
On a tight autocross course or a parking lot this is really less=
than ideal... MIKE analysis??
</div>
<div>
On a big course it might not make such a difference though Jim A=
dams said he had to "toss the Tiger like a sprint
</div>
<div>
car" (keeping it jumping and sliding rather than be smooth=
.. I hear that as...).
</div>
<div>
<br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<div>
Longer MGB steering arms and initial toe-out is the small soluti=
on Dale has...
</div>
<div>
You may notice, its hard to turn the wheel at slow speeds, espec=
ially with big sticky tires.
</div>
<div>
But once you go into a fairly tight turn, it becomes easier as b=
oth tires lose contact.. and the Tiger goes straight
</div>
<div>
off the corner...
</div>
<div>
<br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<div>
Mike, do I have it anywhere correct?
</div>
<div>
Gary W.
</div>
<div>
<br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>
On 09/30/2021 9:55 PM Lance Beauchamp <<a rel=3D"nofollow no=
opener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:blance598@gmail.com"; ta=
rget=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:blance598@gmail.com";>blance598@gmail.com</a>=
> wrote:
</div>
<div>
<br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<div>
<br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<div>
You say you spend alot of time on suspension Gary, can you tell=
me how to make the Tiger easier to turn at lower speeds, like 15 mph or un=
der. I always blame the steering geometry, is it all that=
? Beau
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>_______________________________________________
<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none"><a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rec=
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o:tigers@autox.team.net">tigers@autox.team.net</a>
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