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Gary, I think you nailed it, reverse Ackermann leads to some funky slip ang=
les and strangely heavy steering, particularly felt at low speeds...the fro=
nt tires are literally fighting each other. The fact we all typically add w=
ider wheels makes the steering even heavier (both contact patch to move aro=
und and scrub radius). Finally, maxing out caster with wedges (which I do) =
makes it even worse!=C2=A0The longer MG steering arms help, I've found on c=
ars I've driven so equipped, but I haven't bothered to do on my car. Toe ou=
t changes the slip angle and also helps get the car to turn in, but I only =
go to toe out (1/4") when autocrossing, as toe out also is a great way to k=
ill tires. Besides the poor camber curve, Ackerman is another reason why I =
run as much negative camber as possible...if the outside wheel isn't techni=
cally aligned to the turn radius correctly, at least I can maximize the una=
ligned contact patch in roll lol. Funny thing, even the real experts I've r=
ead can't seem to agree on "Ackermann", because there are so many other var=
iables.I don't know, outside of a custom solution like Dale's or Hokanson's=
front ends, of a real fix. I've just learned to live with heavy steering, =
but if it really is a problem, going to stock width wheels and smaller sect=
ion width tires really makes a difference. The electric power steering solu=
tion has gotten to be a pretty easy=C2=A0deal, but that obviously does noth=
ing to address the underlying geometry issues.Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: GARY WINBLAD <garywinblad@comcast.net>
To: Lance Beauchamp <blance598@gmail.com>; Tiger List <tigers@autox.team.ne=
t>
Sent: Fri, Oct 1, 2021 7:42 am
Subject: Re: [Tigers] Front suspension
Lance, =C2=A0There are a couple more expensive solutions that might be=
still available. Dale did design and make an entire front crossmember/su=
spension.=C2=A0 It fixed the geometry but was about $5K last I heard, and=
he might have stopped making them. People (mostly in EU) have put in ele=
ctric power steering.=C2=A0 It mounts up under the dash so it all looks sto=
ck, would be great in a parking lot or tight course.=C2=A0 Others have pu=
t in conventional hydraulic power steering. Shelby had his guys put in a =
Miata power rack in his wife's Tiger for instance. Gary =20
=20
On 10/01/2021 9:36 AM Lance Beauchamp <blance598@gmail.com> wrote: =20
=20
So it is what it is, end of story, thank very much for a really good exp=
lanation,=C2=A0 still love the car. Beau=C2=A0 =20
On Thu, Sep 30, 2021, 10:13 PM GARY WINBLAD <garywinblad@comcast.net> wr=
ote:=20
=20
HI Lance, Steering geometry is a real problem.=C2=A0 Shelby throwing =
the rack way out in front of the engine was a quick solution. Rootes didn=
't want to change a Shelby design... so we suffer today.=C2=A0 Doane knew i=
t was a problem but he thought Rootes would build a new crossmember. Th=
e problem is when you go around a corner, the inside wheel needs to run a s=
maller radius turn than the outside. Toe in on turns or Ackerman geometry=
is what it is called.=C2=A0 =C2=A0The Tiger has reverse Ackerman, the inne=
r wheel turns a larger radius!=C2=A0 When I used to push my Tiger out to =
my slightly downhill driveway it was easier to turn the wheel full lock t=
han to reach down and pull the parking brake... what a great design Shelby!=
On a tight autocross course or a parking lot this is really less than id=
eal...=C2=A0 MIKE analysis?? On a big course it might not make such a dif=
ference though Jim Adams said he had to "toss the Tiger like a sprint car=
"=C2=A0 (keeping it jumping and sliding rather than be smooth.. I hear that=
as...). =20
Longer MGB steering arms and initial toe-out is the small solution Dale =
has... You may notice, its hard to turn the wheel at slow speeds, especia=
lly with big sticky tires. But once you go into a fairly tight turn, it b=
ecomes easier as both tires lose contact.. and the Tiger goes straight of=
f the corner... =20
Mike, do I have it anywhere correct? Gary W. =20
=20
On 09/30/2021 9:55 PM Lance Beauchamp <blance598@gmail.com> wrote: =20
=20
You say you spend alot of time on suspension Gary, can you tell me how t=
o make the Tiger easier to turn at lower speeds, like 15 mph or under. I al=
ways=C2=A0 blame the steering=C2=A0 geometry,=C2=A0 is it all that?=C2=A0 B=
eau=C2=A0 =20
=20
=20
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Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers http://autox.team.net/archive
Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/mwood24020@aol.co=
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<div style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;color:b=
lack;"><div style=3D"font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10=
pt; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f; font-size: 10pt; color: black;">Gary, I think you nailed it, reverse Ack=
ermann leads to some funky slip angles and strangely heavy steering, partic=
ularly felt at low speeds...the front tires are literally fighting each oth=
er. The fact we all typically add wider wheels makes the steering even heav=
ier (both contact patch to move around and scrub radius). Finally, maxing o=
ut caster with wedges (which I do) makes it even worse! </div><div sty=
le=3D"font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; color: blac=
k;" data-mce-style=3D"font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 1=
0pt; color: black;">The longer MG steering arms help, I've found on cars I'=
ve driven so equipped, but I haven't bothered to do on my car. Toe out chan=
ges the slip angle and also helps get the car to turn in, but I only go to =
toe out (1/4") when autocrossing, as toe out also is a great way to kill ti=
res. Besides the poor camber curve, Ackerman is another reason why I run as=
much negative camber as possible...if the outside wheel isn't technically =
aligned to the turn radius correctly, at least I can maximize the unaligned=
contact patch in roll lol. Funny thing, even the real experts I've read ca=
n't seem to agree on "Ackermann", because there are so many other variables=
.</div><div style=3D"font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10=
pt; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f; font-size: 10pt; color: black;">I don't know, outside of a custom soluti=
on like Dale's or Hokanson's front ends, of a real fix. I've just learned t=
o live with heavy steering, but if it really is a problem, going to stock w=
idth wheels and smaller section width tires really makes a difference. The =
electric power steering solution has gotten to be a pretty easy deal, =
but that obviously does nothing to address the underlying geometry issues.<=
/div><div style=3D"font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt=
; color: black;" data-mce-style=3D"font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;=
font-size: 10pt; color: black;">Mike<br><br><br>-----Original Message-----=
<br>From: GARY WINBLAD <garywinblad@comcast.net><br>To: Lance Beaucha=
mp <blance598@gmail.com>; Tiger List <tigers@autox.team.net><br=
>Sent: Fri, Oct 1, 2021 7:42 am<br>Subject: Re: [Tigers] Front suspension<b=
r><br></div><div id=3D"yiv9946714849">
=20
=20
=20
<div>
<div>
Lance,
</div>
<div class=3D"yiv9946714849default-style">
There are a couple more expensive solutions that might be still av=
ailable.
</div>
<div class=3D"yiv9946714849default-style">
Dale did design and make an entire front crossmember/suspension. I=
t fixed the geometry but was about $5K
</div>
<div class=3D"yiv9946714849default-style">
last I heard, and he might have stopped making them.
</div>
<div class=3D"yiv9946714849default-style">
People (mostly in EU) have put in electric power steering. It moun=
ts up under the dash so it all looks stock,
</div>
<div class=3D"yiv9946714849default-style">
would be great in a parking lot or tight course. Others have put i=
n conventional hydraulic power steering.
</div>
<div class=3D"yiv9946714849default-style">
Shelby had his guys put in a Miata power rack in his wife's Tiger for in=
stance.
</div>
<div class=3D"yiv9946714849default-style">
Gary
</div>
<div class=3D"yiv9946714849default-style">
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>
On 10/01/2021 9:36 AM Lance Beauchamp <blance598@gmail.com> wrote=
:
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
So it is what it is, end of story, thank very much for a really good ex=
planation, still love the car. Beau
</div>
<br>
<div class=3D"yiv9946714849gmail_quote">
<div class=3D"yiv9946714849gmail_attr" dir=3D"ltr">
On Thu, Sep 30, 2021, 10:13 PM GARY WINBLAD <<a rel=3D"nofollow noo=
pener noreferrer" ymailto=3D"mailto:garywinblad@comcast.net"; target=3D"_bla=
nk" href=3D"mailto:garywinblad@comcast.net";>garywinblad@comcast.net</a>>=
wrote:
<br>
</div>
<blockquote>
<u></u>
<div>
<div>
HI Lance,
</div>
<div>
Steering geometry is a real problem. Shelby throwing the rack =
way out in front of the engine was a quick solution.
</div>
<div>
Rootes didn't want to change a Shelby design... so we suffer today.&=
nbsp; Doane knew it was a problem but he thought
</div>
<div>
Rootes would build a new crossmember.
</div>
<div>
The problem is when you go around a corner, the inside wheel needs t=
o run a smaller radius turn than the outside.
</div>
<div>
Toe in on turns or Ackerman geometry is what it is called. &nb=
sp;The Tiger has reverse Ackerman, the inner wheel turns
</div>
<div>
a larger radius! When I used to push my Tiger out to my slight=
ly downhill driveway it was easier to turn the wheel
</div>
<div>
full lock than to reach down and pull the parking brake... what a gr=
eat design Shelby!
</div>
<div>
On a tight autocross course or a parking lot this is really less tha=
n ideal... MIKE analysis??
</div>
<div>
On a big course it might not make such a difference though Jim Adams=
said he had to "toss the Tiger like a sprint
</div>
<div>
car" (keeping it jumping and sliding rather than be smooth.. I=
hear that as...).
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
Longer MGB steering arms and initial toe-out is the small solution D=
ale has...
</div>
<div>
You may notice, its hard to turn the wheel at slow speeds, especiall=
y with big sticky tires.
</div>
<div>
But once you go into a fairly tight turn, it becomes easier as both =
tires lose contact.. and the Tiger goes straight
</div>
<div>
off the corner...
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
Mike, do I have it anywhere correct?
</div>
<div>
Gary W.
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>
On 09/30/2021 9:55 PM Lance Beauchamp <<a rel=3D"nofollow noopen=
er noreferrer" ymailto=3D"mailto:blance598@gmail.com"; target=3D"_blank" hre=
f=3D"mailto:blance598@gmail.com";>blance598@gmail.com</a>> wrote:
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
You say you spend alot of time on suspension Gary, can you tell me =
how to make the Tiger easier to turn at lower speeds, like 15 mph or under.=
I always blame the steering geometry, is it all that?&nb=
sp; Beau
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>_______________________________________________<br><br><a ymailto=3D"=
mailto:tigers@autox.team.net"; href=3D"mailto:tigers@autox.team.net";>tigers@=
autox.team.net</a><br><br>Donate: <a href=3D"http://www.team.net/donate.htm=
l" target=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a><br>Archive: <a hre=
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m.net/pipermail/tigers </a><a href=3D"http://autox.team.net/archive"; target=
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