[Mgs] Off topic. Your mileage may vary. WAS Re: New MG Sports Car Concept

h.duinhoven at planet.nl h.duinhoven at planet.nl
Thu Apr 8 11:55:06 MDT 2021


The electric MG’s from China are quite popular in the Netherlands nowadays. 

Price tag is half a Tesla model 3 price tag.

VW launched their electrical variants now in their models ID3 and ID4, where the ID3 is the most popular lease car currently.

 

Van: Mgs <mgs-bounces at autox.team.net> Namens Paul Root
Verzonden: dinsdag 6 april 2021 22:31
Aan: Paul Noble <noblepa at hotmail.com>
CC: mglist <mgs at autox.team.net>; MG-MGA-MGB <mg-mga-mgb at googlegroups.com>
Onderwerp: Re: [Mgs] Off topic. Your mileage may vary. WAS Re: New MG Sports Car Concept

 

The references I saw was 8 year 100k warranty for most of the US, 10 year 150K for California. 

 

The closest apples to apples that I see would be the Ford Focus electric, or the VW Golf E-something. 

 

I think Telsa cost so much because they are luxury cars. Also, Telsa is really a software company, not a car company. I'm still not convinced they will make it as more car companies start building more electric cars. Reports I've seen, is that build quality for the Model 3, especially, is not great. 

 

I don't buy cars very often, If I buy 4 more cars (daily drivers) in my life, I would bet at least 2 will still have an engine. 

 

On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 3:06 PM Paul Noble <noblepa at hotmail.com <mailto:noblepa at hotmail.com> > wrote:

When I said I had heard that batteries only lasted 50k miles, that was a few years ago. Perhaps I was misinformed or perhaps the batteries have improved.

 

That said, I am still not convinced of the economics of the situation.

 

It is difficult to make any kind of direct comparison between a gasoline and an electric car. No one has, to my knowledge, ever put a gasoline engine in a Tesla. And while there have been many conversions in the opposite direction (replacing a gas engine with electric), these were not production vehicles. All the ones I've seen have simply replaced the gas engine with an electric motor, while retaining the transmission, clutch and differential. This is not optimal. 

 

The closest comparison I've ever seen was between a gasoline Honda Civic and the hybrid version of the same car. IIRC, the gas version got around 40 mpg, while the hybrid got 45. Given that the hybrid was over $3k more than the gas version, the payback period was many years.

 

Why does a Tesla cost so much? Who knows. It is almost certainly, in part, because it is electric. But there are other factors, as well. Compared to GM, Honda and Toyota, the Tesla is a pretty limited production vehicle. Secondly, it costs a LOT of money to start a car company from the ground up. Just ask Malcom Bricklin or John DeLorean. It may also be that Elon Musk made a conscious decision to position the Tesla in an upscale market for luxury cars. For some buyers, the high price is not a hindrance, but the primary attraction.

 

As far as EVs go, we're still in the early-adopter stage. As more and more vehicles become available, the economics will stabilize and the prices will come down. 

 

I'm guessing that in twenty years, maybe less, EVs will be the norm. Gas vehicles will be a niche product, sort of like vinyl records have become. Right now, there are teething pains that must be overcome, and technical improvements that must be made, but all that will happen. One area that I suspect gas vehicles can never compete with electric vehicles is emissions. Gas cars will never reach zero emissions. EVs are already there.

  _____  

From: Paul Root <ptroot at gmail.com <mailto:ptroot at gmail.com> >
Sent: Tuesday, April 6, 2021 3:30 PM
To: Paul Noble <noblepa at hotmail.com <mailto:noblepa at hotmail.com> >
Cc: mglist <mgs at autox.team.net <mailto:mgs at autox.team.net> >; MG-MGA-MGB <mg-mga-mgb at googlegroups.com <mailto:mg-mga-mgb at googlegroups.com> >
Subject: Re: Off topic. Your mileage may vary. WAS Re: [Mgs] New MG Sports Car Concept 

 

Jason of Engineering Explained, bought a Telsa Model 3 last year. He's done 2 2500 mile road trips, summer, and winter. And, of course, has done youtube videos for them. Worth a look.  

 

I hadn't heard that the batteries only last 50k miles. The first hit on a google search says 100-150k and/or 8 years.

 

 

On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 2:19 PM Paul Noble <noblepa at hotmail.com <mailto:noblepa at hotmail.com> > wrote:

I've wondered about the same things, regarding electric and hybrid cars.

 

Another thing to consider is that lithium is environmentally problematic, both in mining it and disposing of it.

 

The problem is that gasoline is still one of the most economical, safest and densest way to transport energy. In most cases, a tank of gasoline will take a car farther than a fully charged battery will.

 

The battery pack is usually much larger than the gas tank, and a lot heavier.

 

I've never owned a Prius or any other hybrid, but I've heard that you're lucky to get 50,000 miles on a set of batteries. Replacing them costs about $3-4k. That's one reason I wouldn't even consider a used Prius, unless the seller showed me receipts for a very recent battery replacement. A Prius (or Tesla for that matter) without batteries is like a conventional car without an engine. It might be a good deal, but you have to factor in the cost of replacing the batteries or engine.

 

Current (no pun intended) technology requires, I believe, a couple of hours, at least, to recharge a fully depleted set of batteries on a fully electric vehicle. That makes long trips a problem, if you have to stop every four hours for a two hour recharge. They could probably speed up the charging process but that would require much higher voltages or current flow, both of which can be dangerous and create heat dissipation problems.

 

I've heard stories that rescue workers have been injured when trying to cut someone out of a crashed hybrid vehicle and accidentally cut through the main battery cable. I know that first responders have been trained for this now, but this remains a problem.

 

Of course, there is a chicken/egg problem with public charging stations. No one wants to spend a lot of money installing public charging stations until there are a lot of EVs to use them. Conversely, many buyers are reluctant to buy an EV because there are not many public charging stations. That is why one of the features of the proposed infrastructure bill now being debated in Congress includes funding to build charging stations.

  _____  

From: 'Paul C Resch' via MG-MGA-MGB <mg-mga-mgb at googlegroups.com <mailto:mg-mga-mgb at googlegroups.com> >
Sent: Tuesday, April 6, 2021 2:49 PM
To: James Dillner <spr1ng19 at outlook.com <mailto:spr1ng19 at outlook.com> >; Dan DiBiase <dan.dibiase at gmail.com <mailto:dan.dibiase at gmail.com> >
Cc: PaulBHunt73 <paulbhunt73 at gmail.com <mailto:paulbhunt73 at gmail.com> >; mglist <mgs at autox.team.net <mailto:mgs at autox.team.net> >; MG-MGA-MGB <mg-mga-mgb at googlegroups.com <mailto:mg-mga-mgb at googlegroups.com> >
Subject: Off topic. Your mileage may vary. WAS Re: [Mgs] New MG Sports Car Concept 

 

I am just looking to have a discussion, not an angry argument but feel I am missing something.

 

When I had a Mazda6 I noticed the similarity to the Tesla S. Turns out same guy Franz von Holzhausen designed both.  Pretty similar.

 

Presuming the cars mission is the same.  Build quality similar, tire usage and performance in real world use equivalent I did some comparisons.  Stupid fast Tesla acceleration is as useless as the Masda6's 600 mile per tank range.   My bladder needs stops more frequently than 9 hours.

 

In 100,000 miles Tesla recharges ($22.00 for 250 miles, I got this from Tesla) would run $8,800.

 

In 100.00 at $2.75 a gallon, 35 miles per US Gallon and 10 - $65 oil changes the total is about $8,500.

 

But the Tesla costs over $70,000 and the Mazda6 half that.

 

Even if recharging at home was free, in 100,000 I am $25,000 dollars ahead.  I am negating resale.  A 100,000 Mazda6 is nicely broken in.. What's the $16.000 Tesla's battery life expectancy.  I just do not know.

 

And a trip such as I just took to Montana last October, 5,000 miles would be nearly impossible.

 

I was in areas where gas stations were few and far between and charging non-existent.  One hotel out of 13 had charging stations.  Rapid charging hurts battery life.  Standing around for a half hour a couple of times a day could get old.

 

I think the European model of changeable battery packs is what will win.

 

Design a platform where you pull in, drop the vehicle into a system much like an automated car wash, and come back in 5 minutes with a fresh battery.  Changed from below.

 

Automatically changed.  SUVs might  have two batteries.  Trucks might have more.

 

Your state of charge, car's pathway and prediction of needed packs would report to your car your assigned swap spot so A: you knew you would have a battery ready and B: that there was no need to squeeze every last drop out of yours.  You'd pay a charge to belong to the system and what your battery had left. So if you wanted to stop every 2 hours for a rest break, just swap the half used battery.

 

I learned that in Wolfsburg's VW factory it is rare for the same model to be built in order as the robots don't care.

 

The infrastructure of charging stations and having enough spigots is tough to see until many years from now.

 

So please, I take trips, not a lot and yes, I could just rent a car for trips, but the current model works for me.

 

A fun read on this topic, tongue firmly in cheek is:

 

1915 Ford Model T vs. 2013 Tesla Model S: Race of the Centuries <https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a15112705/2013-tesla-model-s-vs-1915-ford-model-t-race-of-the-centuries-feature/> 

 




		

	

1915 Ford Model T vs. 2013 Tesla Model S: Race of the Centuries


We stage a multi-state enduro to find out if today's automotive pioneer can outrun its predecessor.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Paul Resch USA Cell phone 661-645-5266 email addresses pcresch at yahoo.com <mailto:pcresch at yahoo.com>  resch at reschonline.com <mailto:resch at reschonline.com> 

 

 

On Tuesday, April 6, 2021, 12:47:33 PM CDT, Dan DiBiase <dan.dibiase at gmail.com <mailto:dan.dibiase at gmail.com> > wrote: 

 

 

Yes, there are 7000-something individual cells bundled into about 15 modules that make up the battery pack in the Model 3/Y (77kWh battery). 

 

Dan D

Central NJ USA


http://dandibiase.cbintouch.com/

 

 

On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 12:07 PM James Dillner <spr1ng19 at outlook.com <mailto:spr1ng19 at outlook.com> > wrote:

This is a bit off topic, but did anyone see the pictures of the Tesla wreck where the battery pack tore apart?  There were thousands of little sub-c cells.....batteries.....scattered all over the place.  Somehow I never dreamed that those power packs were made up of cells all linked together. 

 


  _____  


From: mg-mga-mgb at googlegroups.com <mailto:mg-mga-mgb at googlegroups.com>  <mg-mga-mgb at googlegroups.com <mailto:mg-mga-mgb at googlegroups.com> > on behalf of PaulBHunt73 <paulbhunt73 at gmail.com <mailto:paulbhunt73 at gmail.com> >
Sent: Tuesday, April 6, 2021 11:40 AM
Cc: mglist <mgs at autox.team.net <mailto:mgs at autox.team.net> >; MG-MGA-MGB <MG-MGA-MGB at googlegroups.com <mailto:MG-MGA-MGB at googlegroups.com> >
Subject: Re: [Mgs] New MG Sports Car Concept 

 

Each to their own.  I can't see myself ever buying an EV based on the current range and recharging situation where they are little more than toys for local journeys.  If I get to the point when I'm still around and driving but run out of satisfactory used 'real' cars to buy then I shall revert to using my V8 as a daily driver as I did before.

 

PaulH.

----- Original Message ----- 

 

Hans - one could argue that this concept IS a modern set-up.... ;-) Based on my first month with my Tesla Model Y, I'd absolutely consider anything with an electric drivetrain from this point on. I don't plan to buy another internal combustion vehicle for my daily use.

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