[Mgs] Off topic. Your mileage may vary. WAS Re: New MG Sports Car Concept

Tue Apr 6 18:16:20 MDT 2021

Hi, Paul, yes the Model X is more - it's the larger C/SUV, based on the
Model S sedan.

I never thought to ask about a separate meter. I will have to do that. It's
going to be hard to figure out, with season variances, estimated readings,
etc. But since I started charging off peak, I thought maybe a breakdown of
electricity use by time of day (night) might help me do that.

The Model Y was the first with the heat pump. They have since retrofitted
it in new Model 3's, and also the new (refreshed) Model S/X. It should
significantly reduce battery loss due to heat usage.

Dan D
Central NJ USA
http://dandibiase.cbintouch.com/

On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 6:34 PM Paul Root <ptroot at gmail.com> wrote:

> Interesting stuff, thanks Dan. I didn't know prices, but thought the Model
> X was more.
>
> One of the things in Minnesota, actually, Xcel Energy, is that if you get
> a 240v charger put in, they put it on a separate meter, and you get big
> discounts, for charging off peak (maybe after midnight, I don't remember
> details).
>
> I did see somewhere that Tesla is working on a heat pump instead of just
> using electricity to heat the cabin. That's something needed around here.
>
> On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 4:13 PM Dan DiBiase <dan.dibiase at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> A lot to unpack with all of these messages.....!
>>
>> I am probably the only one here that has an electric vehicle, so guess I
>> should chime in. If you like, you can check out my blog at
>> https://electricallyspeaking.blogspot.com/2021/04/tesla-model-y-one-month-report.html
>>
>> I have the Tesla Model Y, which is the latest model, being a CUV version
>> of the Model 3 sedan (about 75% interchangeability). The version I have is
>> the AWD Long Range. The only options I got was the color (Deep Metallic
>> Blue) and a tow hitch (mainly for a bike rack). It was $53k out the door
>> (no sales tax in NJ for BEV's). If I had taken delivery in December of
>> 2020, I could have gotten a $5k rebate from the state. If I waited until
>> after 7/1/21, there is a chance I could have gotten a $5k point-of-sale
>> discount from the state of NJ (funding still TBD). And there is talk of
>> renewing the $7500 Federal Tax Credit for all made-in-US BEV's, which would
>> include Tesla and Chevy (both of whom have sold over 200k electric vehicles
>> so they currently don't qualify).  I took delivery one month ago, because I
>> wanted the car and was tired of waiting for 'maybes' and 'what ifs'. Saving
>> the 6.625% sales tax was good enough for me.
>>
>> The battery warranty on my car is 8 years/120k miles. The EPA rated range
>> is 326 miles; real world is more like 280 - 290 depending on conditions
>> (speed, temperature, elevation changes, etc). The entire battery is
>> unlikely to go bad at once. Individual modules can be replaced (there are
>> about 15 in my car). Elon Musk has estimated the cost at about $5k to
>> replace a module - that is today's cost. Battery replacement in it's
>> entirety is around $15k currently.
>>
>> The Tesla replaced my 2014 Mazda CX-5 CUV, which had 147k miles on it. It
>> still ran well but was getting to the point where stuff was going to start
>> going wrong and I have to be able to depend on my car. An electric car fits
>> my needs perfectly. I'm a realtor so generally drive locally only, have no
>> daily commute and need a large enough space for signs and misc crap. I've
>> liked Teslas since the Roadster came out in 2008 and have owned the stock
>> for a number of years.
>>
>> You can read my first blog post to see in detail why I wanted an electric
>> car - I do think we need to do a better job reducing greenhouse gases
>> individually and our energy system is going to become more renewables-based
>> as the years go by. Being a 'car guy', electric power is the next wave of
>> technology and is here to stay - the Tesla is essentially a computer that
>> also happens to be a very capable car. And the acceleration is insane for a
>> 4500 lb vehicle. My model does 0-60 in 4.8 seconds. The Performance version
>> of the MY is 4.2 secs. The new Model S Plaid will be under 2 seconds with
>> 400+ miles of range.... Pretty stellar numbers. for a sedan that can hold 5
>> people.....
>>
>> I have a 240v charger in my garage that cost $800 to install (mostly
>> because the electrician had to run the wire 45 ft from my panel to the
>> garage). It adds about 25 miles of range for every hour. I charge overnight
>> with off-peak rates (about half of peak rates). I've only had the car a
>> month so haven't gotten a bill yet to see how much it is actually costing
>> me. Travelling shouldn't be too difficult as Tesla has a Supercharger
>> network of charger that cover about 90% of the US - about every 120 miles
>> or so on the OInterstates, of plenty of locations off them as well. There
>> is one 10  minutes from my house. I charge to a max of 80% every night.
>> Tesla advises keeping the charge levels between 20% - 80% to prolong
>> battery life. When I do take a road trip, I will charge to 100% right
>> before I leave. Plenty of folks charge to 100% frequently and haven't
>> experienced much battery degradation over time. Most reports indicate that
>> charging in general is less expensive than buying gas.
>>
>> Maintenance - obviously, no oil changes. You also get much longer life
>> out of brakes as you rarely use them (regenerative braking from the
>> electric motors, which put energy back into the battery). No exhaust
>> system. No fuel pump. No ignition system. Etc. Tires, you might have to
>> replace more often - these are heavy vehicles. There are maintenance items
>> that need to be checked but they are the normal things - A/C service, cabin
>> air filters, brakes (rarely though). The battery is liquid cooled but there
>> isn't any maintenance schedule that I could find. Oh, and you have to put
>> windshield washer fluid in it...
>>
>> I covered a lot and this is probably too long a read - sorry. But just
>> wanted to lay out a few basics here, based on my personal experience to
>> date.. The Tesla community is a large one - they have over a million
>> vehicles on the road now - and growing larger every day. And every new EV
>> that is announced is a good thing. Tesla isn't going away. Most of the new
>> EV's that are coming out aren't targeted at Tesla but ICE vehicles. That's
>> where the real benefit will come from.
>>
>> Dan D
>> Central NJ USA
>> http://dandibiase.cbintouch.com/
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 4:31 PM Paul Root <ptroot at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> The references I saw was 8 year 100k warranty for most of the US, 10
>>> year 150K for California.
>>>
>>> The closest apples to apples that I see would be the Ford Focus
>>> electric, or the VW Golf E-something.
>>>
>>> I think Telsa cost so much because they are luxury cars. Also, Telsa is
>>> really a software company, not a car company. I'm still not convinced they
>>> will make it as more car companies start building more electric cars.
>>> Reports I've seen, is that build quality for the Model 3, especially, is
>>> not great.
>>>
>>> I don't buy cars very often, If I buy 4 more cars (daily drivers) in my
>>> life, I would bet at least 2 will still have an engine.
>>>
>>> On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 3:06 PM Paul Noble <noblepa at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> When I said I had heard that batteries only lasted 50k miles, that was
>>>> a few years ago. Perhaps I was misinformed or perhaps the batteries have
>>>> improved.
>>>>
>>>> That said, I am still not convinced of the economics of the situation.
>>>>
>>>> It is difficult to make any kind of direct comparison between a
>>>> gasoline and an electric car. No one has, to my knowledge, ever put a
>>>> gasoline engine in a Tesla. And while there have been many conversions in
>>>> the opposite direction (replacing a gas engine with electric), these were
>>>> not production vehicles. All the ones I've seen have simply replaced the
>>>> gas engine with an electric motor, while retaining the transmission, clutch
>>>> and differential. This is not optimal.
>>>>
>>>> The closest comparison I've ever seen was between a gasoline Honda
>>>> Civic and the hybrid version of the same car. IIRC, the gas version got
>>>> around 40 mpg, while the hybrid got 45. Given that the hybrid was over $3k
>>>> more than the gas version, the payback period was many years.
>>>>
>>>> Why does a Tesla cost so much? Who knows. It is almost certainly, in
>>>> part, because it is electric. But there are other factors, as well.
>>>> Compared to GM, Honda and Toyota, the Tesla is a pretty limited production
>>>> vehicle. Secondly, it costs a LOT of money to start a car company from the
>>>> ground up. Just ask Malcom Bricklin or John DeLorean. It may also be that
>>>> Elon Musk made a conscious decision to position the Tesla in an upscale
>>>> market for luxury cars. For some buyers, the high price is not a hindrance,
>>>> but the primary attraction.
>>>>
>>>> As far as EVs go, we're still in the early-adopter stage. As more and
>>>> more vehicles become available, the economics will stabilize and the prices
>>>> will come down.
>>>>
>>>> I'm guessing that in twenty years, maybe less, EVs will be the norm.
>>>> Gas vehicles will be a niche product, sort of like vinyl records have
>>>> become. Right now, there are teething pains that must be overcome, and
>>>> technical improvements that must be made, but all that will happen. One
>>>> area that I suspect gas vehicles can never compete with electric vehicles
>>>> is emissions. Gas cars will never reach zero emissions. EVs are already
>>>> there.
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>> *From:* Paul Root <ptroot at gmail.com>
>>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 6, 2021 3:30 PM
>>>> *To:* Paul Noble <noblepa at hotmail.com>
>>>> *Cc:* mglist <mgs at autox.team.net>; MG-MGA-MGB <
>>>> mg-mga-mgb at googlegroups.com>
>>>> *Subject:* Re: Off topic. Your mileage may vary. WAS Re: [Mgs] New MG
>>>> Sports Car Concept
>>>>
>>>> Jason of Engineering Explained, bought a Telsa Model 3 last year. He's
>>>> done 2 2500 mile road trips, summer, and winter. And, of course, has done
>>>> youtube videos for them. Worth a look.
>>>>
>>>> I hadn't heard that the batteries only last 50k miles. The first hit on
>>>> a google search says 100-150k and/or 8 years.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 2:19 PM Paul Noble <noblepa at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I've wondered about the same things, regarding electric and hybrid cars.
>>>>
>>>> Another thing to consider is that lithium is environmentally
>>>> problematic, both in mining it and disposing of it.
>>>>
>>>> The problem is that gasoline is still one of the most economical,
>>>> safest and densest way to transport energy. In most cases, a tank of
>>>> gasoline will take a car farther than a fully charged battery will.
>>>>
>>>> The battery pack is usually much larger than the gas tank, and a lot
>>>> heavier.
>>>>
>>>> I've never owned a Prius or any other hybrid, but I've heard that
>>>> you're lucky to get 50,000 miles on a set of batteries. Replacing them
>>>> costs about $3-4k. That's one reason I wouldn't even consider a used Prius,
>>>> unless the seller showed me receipts for a very recent battery replacement.
>>>> A Prius (or Tesla for that matter) without batteries is like a conventional
>>>> car without an engine. It might be a good deal, but you have to factor in
>>>> the cost of replacing the batteries or engine.
>>>>
>>>> Current (no pun intended) technology requires, I believe, a couple of
>>>> hours, at least, to recharge a fully depleted set of batteries on a fully
>>>> electric vehicle. That makes long trips a problem, if you have to stop
>>>> every four hours for a two hour recharge. They could probably speed up the
>>>> charging process but that would require much higher voltages or current
>>>> flow, both of which can be dangerous and create heat dissipation problems.
>>>>
>>>> I've heard stories that rescue workers have been injured when trying to
>>>> cut someone out of a crashed hybrid vehicle and accidentally cut through
>>>> the main battery cable. I know that first responders have been trained for
>>>> this now, but this remains a problem.
>>>>
>>>> Of course, there is a chicken/egg problem with public charging
>>>> stations. No one wants to spend a lot of money installing public charging
>>>> stations until there are a lot of EVs to use them. Conversely, many buyers
>>>> are reluctant to buy an EV because there are not many public charging
>>>> stations. That is why one of the features of the proposed infrastructure
>>>> bill now being debated in Congress includes funding to build charging
>>>> stations.
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>> *From:* 'Paul C Resch' via MG-MGA-MGB <mg-mga-mgb at googlegroups.com>
>>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 6, 2021 2:49 PM
>>>> *To:* James Dillner <spr1ng19 at outlook.com>; Dan DiBiase <
>>>> dan.dibiase at gmail.com>
>>>> *Cc:* PaulBHunt73 <paulbhunt73 at gmail.com>; mglist <mgs at autox.team.net>;
>>>> MG-MGA-MGB <mg-mga-mgb at googlegroups.com>
>>>> *Subject:* Off topic. Your mileage may vary. WAS Re: [Mgs] New MG
>>>> Sports Car Concept
>>>>
>>>> I am just looking to have a discussion, not an angry argument but feel
>>>> I am missing something.
>>>>
>>>> When I had a Mazda6 I noticed the similarity to the Tesla S. Turns out
>>>> same guy Franz von Holzhausen designed both.  Pretty similar.
>>>>
>>>> Presuming the cars mission is the same.  Build quality similar, tire
>>>> usage and performance in real world use equivalent I did some comparisons.
>>>> Stupid fast Tesla acceleration is as useless as the Masda6's 600 mile per
>>>> tank range.   My bladder needs stops more frequently than 9 hours.
>>>>
>>>> In 100,000 miles Tesla recharges ($22.00 for 250 miles, I got this from
>>>> Tesla) would run $8,800.
>>>>
>>>> In 100.00 at $2.75 a gallon, 35 miles per US Gallon and 10 - $65 oil
>>>> changes the total is about $8,500.
>>>>
>>>> But the Tesla costs over $70,000 and the Mazda6 half that.
>>>>
>>>> Even if recharging at home was free, in 100,000 I am $25,000 dollars
>>>> ahead.  I am negating resale.  A 100,000 Mazda6 is nicely broken in..
>>>> What's the $16.000 Tesla's battery life expectancy.  I just do not know.
>>>>
>>>> And a trip such as I just took to Montana last October, 5,000 miles
>>>> would be nearly impossible.
>>>>
>>>> I was in areas where gas stations were few and far between and charging
>>>> non-existent.  One hotel out of 13 had charging stations.  Rapid charging
>>>> hurts battery life.  Standing around for a half hour a couple of times a
>>>> day could get old.
>>>>
>>>> I think the European model of changeable battery packs is what will win.
>>>>
>>>> Design a platform where you pull in, drop the vehicle into a system
>>>> much like an automated car wash, and come back in 5 minutes with a fresh
>>>> battery.  Changed from below.
>>>>
>>>> Automatically changed.  SUVs might  have two batteries.  Trucks might
>>>> have more.
>>>>
>>>> Your state of charge, car's pathway and prediction of needed packs
>>>> would report to your car your assigned swap spot so A: you knew you would
>>>> have a battery ready and B: that there was no need to squeeze every last
>>>> drop out of yours.  You'd pay a charge to belong to the system and what
>>>> your battery had left. So if you wanted to stop every 2 hours for a rest
>>>> break, just swap the half used battery.
>>>>
>>>> I learned that in Wolfsburg's VW factory it is rare for the same model
>>>> to be built in order as the robots don't care.
>>>>
>>>> The infrastructure of charging stations and having enough spigots is
>>>> tough to see until many years from now.
>>>>
>>>> So please, I take trips, not a lot and yes, I could just rent a car for
>>>> trips, but the current model works for me.
>>>>
>>>> A fun read on this topic, tongue firmly in cheek is:
>>>>
>>>> 1915 Ford Model T vs. 2013 Tesla Model S: Race of the Centuries
>>>> <https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a15112705/2013-tesla-model-s-vs-1915-ford-model-t-race-of-the-centuries-feature/>
>>>>
>>>> 1915 Ford Model T vs. 2013 Tesla Model S: Race of the Centuries
>>>>
>>>> We stage a multi-state enduro to find out if today's automotive pioneer
>>>> can outrun its predecessor.
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a15112705/2013-tesla-model-s-vs-1915-ford-model-t-race-of-the-centuries-feature/>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Paul Resch USA Cell phone 661-645-5266 email addresses
>>>> pcresch at yahoo.com resch at reschonline.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tuesday, April 6, 2021, 12:47:33 PM CDT, Dan DiBiase <
>>>> dan.dibiase at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, there are 7000-something individual cells bundled into about 15
>>>> modules that make up the battery pack in the Model 3/Y (77kWh battery).
>>>>
>>>> Dan D
>>>> Central NJ USA
>>>> http://dandibiase.cbintouch.com/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 12:07 PM James Dillner <spr1ng19 at outlook.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> This is a bit off topic, but did anyone see the pictures of the Tesla
>>>> wreck where the battery pack tore apart?  There were thousands of little
>>>> sub-c cells.....batteries.....scattered all over the place.  Somehow I
>>>> never dreamed that those power packs were made up of cells all linked
>>>> together.
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>> *From:* mg-mga-mgb at googlegroups.com <mg-mga-mgb at googlegroups.com> on
>>>> behalf of PaulBHunt73 <paulbhunt73 at gmail.com>
>>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 6, 2021 11:40 AM
>>>> *Cc:* mglist <mgs at autox.team.net>; MG-MGA-MGB <
>>>> MG-MGA-MGB at googlegroups.com>
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Mgs] New MG Sports Car Concept
>>>>
>>>> Each to their own.  I can't see myself ever buying an EV based on the
>>>> current range and recharging situation where they are little more than toys
>>>> for local journeys.  If I get to the point when I'm still around and
>>>> driving but run out of satisfactory used 'real' cars to buy then I shall
>>>> revert to using my V8 as a daily driver as I did before.
>>>>
>>>> PaulH.
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>
>>>> Hans - one could argue that this concept IS a modern set-up.... ;-)
>>>> Based on my first month with my Tesla Model Y, I'd absolutely consider
>>>> anything with an electric drivetrain from this point on. I don't plan to
>>>> buy another internal combustion vehicle for my daily use.
>>>>
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