[Mgs] Off topic. Your mileage may vary. WAS Re: New MG Sports Car Concept

Paul Root ptroot at gmail.com
Tue Apr 6 16:34:09 MDT 2021


Interesting stuff, thanks Dan. I didn't know prices, but thought the Model
X was more.

One of the things in Minnesota, actually, Xcel Energy, is that if you get a
240v charger put in, they put it on a separate meter, and you get big
discounts, for charging off peak (maybe after midnight, I don't remember
details).

I did see somewhere that Tesla is working on a heat pump instead of just
using electricity to heat the cabin. That's something needed around here.

On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 4:13 PM Dan DiBiase <dan.dibiase at gmail.com> wrote:

> A lot to unpack with all of these messages.....!
>
> I am probably the only one here that has an electric vehicle, so guess I
> should chime in. If you like, you can check out my blog at
> https://electricallyspeaking.blogspot.com/2021/04/tesla-model-y-one-month-report.html
>
> I have the Tesla Model Y, which is the latest model, being a CUV version
> of the Model 3 sedan (about 75% interchangeability). The version I have is
> the AWD Long Range. The only options I got was the color (Deep Metallic
> Blue) and a tow hitch (mainly for a bike rack). It was $53k out the door
> (no sales tax in NJ for BEV's). If I had taken delivery in December of
> 2020, I could have gotten a $5k rebate from the state. If I waited until
> after 7/1/21, there is a chance I could have gotten a $5k point-of-sale
> discount from the state of NJ (funding still TBD). And there is talk of
> renewing the $7500 Federal Tax Credit for all made-in-US BEV's, which would
> include Tesla and Chevy (both of whom have sold over 200k electric vehicles
> so they currently don't qualify).  I took delivery one month ago, because I
> wanted the car and was tired of waiting for 'maybes' and 'what ifs'. Saving
> the 6.625% sales tax was good enough for me.
>
> The battery warranty on my car is 8 years/120k miles. The EPA rated range
> is 326 miles; real world is more like 280 - 290 depending on conditions
> (speed, temperature, elevation changes, etc). The entire battery is
> unlikely to go bad at once. Individual modules can be replaced (there are
> about 15 in my car). Elon Musk has estimated the cost at about $5k to
> replace a module - that is today's cost. Battery replacement in it's
> entirety is around $15k currently.
>
> The Tesla replaced my 2014 Mazda CX-5 CUV, which had 147k miles on it. It
> still ran well but was getting to the point where stuff was going to start
> going wrong and I have to be able to depend on my car. An electric car fits
> my needs perfectly. I'm a realtor so generally drive locally only, have no
> daily commute and need a large enough space for signs and misc crap. I've
> liked Teslas since the Roadster came out in 2008 and have owned the stock
> for a number of years.
>
> You can read my first blog post to see in detail why I wanted an electric
> car - I do think we need to do a better job reducing greenhouse gases
> individually and our energy system is going to become more renewables-based
> as the years go by. Being a 'car guy', electric power is the next wave of
> technology and is here to stay - the Tesla is essentially a computer that
> also happens to be a very capable car. And the acceleration is insane for a
> 4500 lb vehicle. My model does 0-60 in 4.8 seconds. The Performance version
> of the MY is 4.2 secs. The new Model S Plaid will be under 2 seconds with
> 400+ miles of range.... Pretty stellar numbers. for a sedan that can hold 5
> people.....
>
> I have a 240v charger in my garage that cost $800 to install (mostly
> because the electrician had to run the wire 45 ft from my panel to the
> garage). It adds about 25 miles of range for every hour. I charge overnight
> with off-peak rates (about half of peak rates). I've only had the car a
> month so haven't gotten a bill yet to see how much it is actually costing
> me. Travelling shouldn't be too difficult as Tesla has a Supercharger
> network of charger that cover about 90% of the US - about every 120 miles
> or so on the OInterstates, of plenty of locations off them as well. There
> is one 10  minutes from my house. I charge to a max of 80% every night.
> Tesla advises keeping the charge levels between 20% - 80% to prolong
> battery life. When I do take a road trip, I will charge to 100% right
> before I leave. Plenty of folks charge to 100% frequently and haven't
> experienced much battery degradation over time. Most reports indicate that
> charging in general is less expensive than buying gas.
>
> Maintenance - obviously, no oil changes. You also get much longer life out
> of brakes as you rarely use them (regenerative braking from the electric
> motors, which put energy back into the battery). No exhaust system. No fuel
> pump. No ignition system. Etc. Tires, you might have to replace more often
> - these are heavy vehicles. There are maintenance items that need to be
> checked but they are the normal things - A/C service, cabin air filters,
> brakes (rarely though). The battery is liquid cooled but there isn't any
> maintenance schedule that I could find. Oh, and you have to put windshield
> washer fluid in it...
>
> I covered a lot and this is probably too long a read - sorry. But just
> wanted to lay out a few basics here, based on my personal experience to
> date.. The Tesla community is a large one - they have over a million
> vehicles on the road now - and growing larger every day. And every new EV
> that is announced is a good thing. Tesla isn't going away. Most of the new
> EV's that are coming out aren't targeted at Tesla but ICE vehicles. That's
> where the real benefit will come from.
>
> Dan D
> Central NJ USA
> http://dandibiase.cbintouch.com/
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 4:31 PM Paul Root <ptroot at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> The references I saw was 8 year 100k warranty for most of the US, 10 year
>> 150K for California.
>>
>> The closest apples to apples that I see would be the Ford Focus electric,
>> or the VW Golf E-something.
>>
>> I think Telsa cost so much because they are luxury cars. Also, Telsa is
>> really a software company, not a car company. I'm still not convinced they
>> will make it as more car companies start building more electric cars.
>> Reports I've seen, is that build quality for the Model 3, especially, is
>> not great.
>>
>> I don't buy cars very often, If I buy 4 more cars (daily drivers) in my
>> life, I would bet at least 2 will still have an engine.
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 3:06 PM Paul Noble <noblepa at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> When I said I had heard that batteries only lasted 50k miles, that was a
>>> few years ago. Perhaps I was misinformed or perhaps the batteries have
>>> improved.
>>>
>>> That said, I am still not convinced of the economics of the situation.
>>>
>>> It is difficult to make any kind of direct comparison between a gasoline
>>> and an electric car. No one has, to my knowledge, ever put a gasoline
>>> engine in a Tesla. And while there have been many conversions in the
>>> opposite direction (replacing a gas engine with electric), these were not
>>> production vehicles. All the ones I've seen have simply replaced the gas
>>> engine with an electric motor, while retaining the transmission, clutch and
>>> differential. This is not optimal.
>>>
>>> The closest comparison I've ever seen was between a gasoline Honda Civic
>>> and the hybrid version of the same car. IIRC, the gas version got around 40
>>> mpg, while the hybrid got 45. Given that the hybrid was over $3k more than
>>> the gas version, the payback period was many years.
>>>
>>> Why does a Tesla cost so much? Who knows. It is almost certainly, in
>>> part, because it is electric. But there are other factors, as well.
>>> Compared to GM, Honda and Toyota, the Tesla is a pretty limited production
>>> vehicle. Secondly, it costs a LOT of money to start a car company from the
>>> ground up. Just ask Malcom Bricklin or John DeLorean. It may also be that
>>> Elon Musk made a conscious decision to position the Tesla in an upscale
>>> market for luxury cars. For some buyers, the high price is not a hindrance,
>>> but the primary attraction.
>>>
>>> As far as EVs go, we're still in the early-adopter stage. As more and
>>> more vehicles become available, the economics will stabilize and the prices
>>> will come down.
>>>
>>> I'm guessing that in twenty years, maybe less, EVs will be the norm. Gas
>>> vehicles will be a niche product, sort of like vinyl records have become.
>>> Right now, there are teething pains that must be overcome, and technical
>>> improvements that must be made, but all that will happen. One area that I
>>> suspect gas vehicles can never compete with electric vehicles is emissions.
>>> Gas cars will never reach zero emissions. EVs are already there.
>>> ------------------------------
>>> *From:* Paul Root <ptroot at gmail.com>
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 6, 2021 3:30 PM
>>> *To:* Paul Noble <noblepa at hotmail.com>
>>> *Cc:* mglist <mgs at autox.team.net>; MG-MGA-MGB <
>>> mg-mga-mgb at googlegroups.com>
>>> *Subject:* Re: Off topic. Your mileage may vary. WAS Re: [Mgs] New MG
>>> Sports Car Concept
>>>
>>> Jason of Engineering Explained, bought a Telsa Model 3 last year. He's
>>> done 2 2500 mile road trips, summer, and winter. And, of course, has done
>>> youtube videos for them. Worth a look.
>>>
>>> I hadn't heard that the batteries only last 50k miles. The first hit on
>>> a google search says 100-150k and/or 8 years.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 2:19 PM Paul Noble <noblepa at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I've wondered about the same things, regarding electric and hybrid cars.
>>>
>>> Another thing to consider is that lithium is environmentally
>>> problematic, both in mining it and disposing of it.
>>>
>>> The problem is that gasoline is still one of the most economical, safest
>>> and densest way to transport energy. In most cases, a tank of gasoline will
>>> take a car farther than a fully charged battery will.
>>>
>>> The battery pack is usually much larger than the gas tank, and a lot
>>> heavier.
>>>
>>> I've never owned a Prius or any other hybrid, but I've heard that you're
>>> lucky to get 50,000 miles on a set of batteries. Replacing them costs about
>>> $3-4k. That's one reason I wouldn't even consider a used Prius, unless the
>>> seller showed me receipts for a very recent battery replacement. A Prius
>>> (or Tesla for that matter) without batteries is like a conventional car
>>> without an engine. It might be a good deal, but you have to factor in the
>>> cost of replacing the batteries or engine.
>>>
>>> Current (no pun intended) technology requires, I believe, a couple of
>>> hours, at least, to recharge a fully depleted set of batteries on a fully
>>> electric vehicle. That makes long trips a problem, if you have to stop
>>> every four hours for a two hour recharge. They could probably speed up the
>>> charging process but that would require much higher voltages or current
>>> flow, both of which can be dangerous and create heat dissipation problems.
>>>
>>> I've heard stories that rescue workers have been injured when trying to
>>> cut someone out of a crashed hybrid vehicle and accidentally cut through
>>> the main battery cable. I know that first responders have been trained for
>>> this now, but this remains a problem.
>>>
>>> Of course, there is a chicken/egg problem with public charging stations.
>>> No one wants to spend a lot of money installing public charging stations
>>> until there are a lot of EVs to use them. Conversely, many buyers are
>>> reluctant to buy an EV because there are not many public charging stations.
>>> That is why one of the features of the proposed infrastructure bill now
>>> being debated in Congress includes funding to build charging stations.
>>> ------------------------------
>>> *From:* 'Paul C Resch' via MG-MGA-MGB <mg-mga-mgb at googlegroups.com>
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 6, 2021 2:49 PM
>>> *To:* James Dillner <spr1ng19 at outlook.com>; Dan DiBiase <
>>> dan.dibiase at gmail.com>
>>> *Cc:* PaulBHunt73 <paulbhunt73 at gmail.com>; mglist <mgs at autox.team.net>;
>>> MG-MGA-MGB <mg-mga-mgb at googlegroups.com>
>>> *Subject:* Off topic. Your mileage may vary. WAS Re: [Mgs] New MG
>>> Sports Car Concept
>>>
>>> I am just looking to have a discussion, not an angry argument but feel I
>>> am missing something.
>>>
>>> When I had a Mazda6 I noticed the similarity to the Tesla S. Turns out
>>> same guy Franz von Holzhausen designed both.  Pretty similar.
>>>
>>> Presuming the cars mission is the same.  Build quality similar, tire
>>> usage and performance in real world use equivalent I did some comparisons.
>>> Stupid fast Tesla acceleration is as useless as the Masda6's 600 mile per
>>> tank range.   My bladder needs stops more frequently than 9 hours.
>>>
>>> In 100,000 miles Tesla recharges ($22.00 for 250 miles, I got this from
>>> Tesla) would run $8,800.
>>>
>>> In 100.00 at $2.75 a gallon, 35 miles per US Gallon and 10 - $65 oil
>>> changes the total is about $8,500.
>>>
>>> But the Tesla costs over $70,000 and the Mazda6 half that.
>>>
>>> Even if recharging at home was free, in 100,000 I am $25,000 dollars
>>> ahead.  I am negating resale.  A 100,000 Mazda6 is nicely broken in..
>>> What's the $16.000 Tesla's battery life expectancy.  I just do not know.
>>>
>>> And a trip such as I just took to Montana last October, 5,000 miles
>>> would be nearly impossible.
>>>
>>> I was in areas where gas stations were few and far between and charging
>>> non-existent.  One hotel out of 13 had charging stations.  Rapid charging
>>> hurts battery life.  Standing around for a half hour a couple of times a
>>> day could get old.
>>>
>>> I think the European model of changeable battery packs is what will win.
>>>
>>> Design a platform where you pull in, drop the vehicle into a system much
>>> like an automated car wash, and come back in 5 minutes with a fresh
>>> battery.  Changed from below.
>>>
>>> Automatically changed.  SUVs might  have two batteries.  Trucks might
>>> have more.
>>>
>>> Your state of charge, car's pathway and prediction of needed packs would
>>> report to your car your assigned swap spot so A: you knew you would have a
>>> battery ready and B: that there was no need to squeeze every last drop out
>>> of yours.  You'd pay a charge to belong to the system and what your battery
>>> had left. So if you wanted to stop every 2 hours for a rest break, just
>>> swap the half used battery.
>>>
>>> I learned that in Wolfsburg's VW factory it is rare for the same model
>>> to be built in order as the robots don't care.
>>>
>>> The infrastructure of charging stations and having enough spigots is
>>> tough to see until many years from now.
>>>
>>> So please, I take trips, not a lot and yes, I could just rent a car for
>>> trips, but the current model works for me.
>>>
>>> A fun read on this topic, tongue firmly in cheek is:
>>>
>>> 1915 Ford Model T vs. 2013 Tesla Model S: Race of the Centuries
>>> <https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a15112705/2013-tesla-model-s-vs-1915-ford-model-t-race-of-the-centuries-feature/>
>>>
>>> 1915 Ford Model T vs. 2013 Tesla Model S: Race of the Centuries
>>>
>>> We stage a multi-state enduro to find out if today's automotive pioneer
>>> can outrun its predecessor.
>>>
>>> <https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a15112705/2013-tesla-model-s-vs-1915-ford-model-t-race-of-the-centuries-feature/>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Paul Resch USA Cell phone 661-645-5266 email addresses pcresch at yahoo.com
>>> resch at reschonline.com
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, April 6, 2021, 12:47:33 PM CDT, Dan DiBiase <
>>> dan.dibiase at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, there are 7000-something individual cells bundled into about 15
>>> modules that make up the battery pack in the Model 3/Y (77kWh battery).
>>>
>>> Dan D
>>> Central NJ USA
>>> http://dandibiase.cbintouch.com/
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 12:07 PM James Dillner <spr1ng19 at outlook.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> This is a bit off topic, but did anyone see the pictures of the Tesla
>>> wreck where the battery pack tore apart?  There were thousands of little
>>> sub-c cells.....batteries.....scattered all over the place.  Somehow I
>>> never dreamed that those power packs were made up of cells all linked
>>> together.
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>> *From:* mg-mga-mgb at googlegroups.com <mg-mga-mgb at googlegroups.com> on
>>> behalf of PaulBHunt73 <paulbhunt73 at gmail.com>
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 6, 2021 11:40 AM
>>> *Cc:* mglist <mgs at autox.team.net>; MG-MGA-MGB <
>>> MG-MGA-MGB at googlegroups.com>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Mgs] New MG Sports Car Concept
>>>
>>> Each to their own.  I can't see myself ever buying an EV based on the
>>> current range and recharging situation where they are little more than toys
>>> for local journeys.  If I get to the point when I'm still around and
>>> driving but run out of satisfactory used 'real' cars to buy then I shall
>>> revert to using my V8 as a daily driver as I did before.
>>>
>>> PaulH.
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>
>>> Hans - one could argue that this concept IS a modern set-up.... ;-)
>>> Based on my first month with my Tesla Model Y, I'd absolutely consider
>>> anything with an electric drivetrain from this point on. I don't plan to
>>> buy another internal combustion vehicle for my daily use.
>>>
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