[Mgs] Off topic. Your mileage may vary. WAS Re: New MG Sports Car Concept

Tue Apr 6 15:12:28 MDT 2021

A lot to unpack with all of these messages.....!

I am probably the only one here that has an electric vehicle, so guess I
should chime in. If you like, you can check out my blog at
https://electricallyspeaking.blogspot.com/2021/04/tesla-model-y-one-month-report.html

I have the Tesla Model Y, which is the latest model, being a CUV version of
the Model 3 sedan (about 75% interchangeability). The version I have is the
AWD Long Range. The only options I got was the color (Deep Metallic Blue)
and a tow hitch (mainly for a bike rack). It was $53k out the door (no
sales tax in NJ for BEV's). If I had taken delivery in December of 2020, I
could have gotten a $5k rebate from the state. If I waited until after
7/1/21, there is a chance I could have gotten a $5k point-of-sale discount
from the state of NJ (funding still TBD). And there is talk of renewing the
$7500 Federal Tax Credit for all made-in-US BEV's, which would include
Tesla and Chevy (both of whom have sold over 200k electric vehicles so they
currently don't qualify).  I took delivery one month ago, because I wanted
the car and was tired of waiting for 'maybes' and 'what ifs'. Saving the
6.625% sales tax was good enough for me.

The battery warranty on my car is 8 years/120k miles. The EPA rated range
is 326 miles; real world is more like 280 - 290 depending on conditions
(speed, temperature, elevation changes, etc). The entire battery is
unlikely to go bad at once. Individual modules can be replaced (there are
about 15 in my car). Elon Musk has estimated the cost at about $5k to
replace a module - that is today's cost. Battery replacement in it's
entirety is around $15k currently.

The Tesla replaced my 2014 Mazda CX-5 CUV, which had 147k miles on it. It
still ran well but was getting to the point where stuff was going to start
going wrong and I have to be able to depend on my car. An electric car fits
my needs perfectly. I'm a realtor so generally drive locally only, have no
daily commute and need a large enough space for signs and misc crap. I've
liked Teslas since the Roadster came out in 2008 and have owned the stock
for a number of years.

You can read my first blog post to see in detail why I wanted an electric
car - I do think we need to do a better job reducing greenhouse gases
individually and our energy system is going to become more renewables-based
as the years go by. Being a 'car guy', electric power is the next wave of
technology and is here to stay - the Tesla is essentially a computer that
also happens to be a very capable car. And the acceleration is insane for a
4500 lb vehicle. My model does 0-60 in 4.8 seconds. The Performance version
of the MY is 4.2 secs. The new Model S Plaid will be under 2 seconds with
400+ miles of range.... Pretty stellar numbers. for a sedan that can hold 5
people.....

I have a 240v charger in my garage that cost $800 to install (mostly
because the electrician had to run the wire 45 ft from my panel to the
garage). It adds about 25 miles of range for every hour. I charge overnight
with off-peak rates (about half of peak rates). I've only had the car a
month so haven't gotten a bill yet to see how much it is actually costing
me. Travelling shouldn't be too difficult as Tesla has a Supercharger
network of charger that cover about 90% of the US - about every 120 miles
or so on the OInterstates, of plenty of locations off them as well. There
is one 10  minutes from my house. I charge to a max of 80% every night.
Tesla advises keeping the charge levels between 20% - 80% to prolong
battery life. When I do take a road trip, I will charge to 100% right
before I leave. Plenty of folks charge to 100% frequently and haven't
experienced much battery degradation over time. Most reports indicate that
charging in general is less expensive than buying gas.

Maintenance - obviously, no oil changes. You also get much longer life out
of brakes as you rarely use them (regenerative braking from the electric
motors, which put energy back into the battery). No exhaust system. No fuel
pump. No ignition system. Etc. Tires, you might have to replace more often
- these are heavy vehicles. There are maintenance items that need to be
checked but they are the normal things - A/C service, cabin air filters,
brakes (rarely though). The battery is liquid cooled but there isn't any
maintenance schedule that I could find. Oh, and you have to put windshield
washer fluid in it...

I covered a lot and this is probably too long a read - sorry. But just
wanted to lay out a few basics here, based on my personal experience to
date.. The Tesla community is a large one - they have over a million
vehicles on the road now - and growing larger every day. And every new EV
that is announced is a good thing. Tesla isn't going away. Most of the new
EV's that are coming out aren't targeted at Tesla but ICE vehicles. That's
where the real benefit will come from.

Dan D
Central NJ USA
http://dandibiase.cbintouch.com/

On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 4:31 PM Paul Root <ptroot at gmail.com> wrote:

> The references I saw was 8 year 100k warranty for most of the US, 10 year
> 150K for California.
>
> The closest apples to apples that I see would be the Ford Focus electric,
> or the VW Golf E-something.
>
> I think Telsa cost so much because they are luxury cars. Also, Telsa is
> really a software company, not a car company. I'm still not convinced they
> will make it as more car companies start building more electric cars.
> Reports I've seen, is that build quality for the Model 3, especially, is
> not great.
>
> I don't buy cars very often, If I buy 4 more cars (daily drivers) in my
> life, I would bet at least 2 will still have an engine.
>
> On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 3:06 PM Paul Noble <noblepa at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> When I said I had heard that batteries only lasted 50k miles, that was a
>> few years ago. Perhaps I was misinformed or perhaps the batteries have
>> improved.
>>
>> That said, I am still not convinced of the economics of the situation.
>>
>> It is difficult to make any kind of direct comparison between a gasoline
>> and an electric car. No one has, to my knowledge, ever put a gasoline
>> engine in a Tesla. And while there have been many conversions in the
>> opposite direction (replacing a gas engine with electric), these were not
>> production vehicles. All the ones I've seen have simply replaced the gas
>> engine with an electric motor, while retaining the transmission, clutch and
>> differential. This is not optimal.
>>
>> The closest comparison I've ever seen was between a gasoline Honda Civic
>> and the hybrid version of the same car. IIRC, the gas version got around 40
>> mpg, while the hybrid got 45. Given that the hybrid was over $3k more than
>> the gas version, the payback period was many years.
>>
>> Why does a Tesla cost so much? Who knows. It is almost certainly, in
>> part, because it is electric. But there are other factors, as well.
>> Compared to GM, Honda and Toyota, the Tesla is a pretty limited production
>> vehicle. Secondly, it costs a LOT of money to start a car company from the
>> ground up. Just ask Malcom Bricklin or John DeLorean. It may also be that
>> Elon Musk made a conscious decision to position the Tesla in an upscale
>> market for luxury cars. For some buyers, the high price is not a hindrance,
>> but the primary attraction.
>>
>> As far as EVs go, we're still in the early-adopter stage. As more and
>> more vehicles become available, the economics will stabilize and the prices
>> will come down.
>>
>> I'm guessing that in twenty years, maybe less, EVs will be the norm. Gas
>> vehicles will be a niche product, sort of like vinyl records have become.
>> Right now, there are teething pains that must be overcome, and technical
>> improvements that must be made, but all that will happen. One area that I
>> suspect gas vehicles can never compete with electric vehicles is emissions.
>> Gas cars will never reach zero emissions. EVs are already there.
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* Paul Root <ptroot at gmail.com>
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 6, 2021 3:30 PM
>> *To:* Paul Noble <noblepa at hotmail.com>
>> *Cc:* mglist <mgs at autox.team.net>; MG-MGA-MGB <
>> mg-mga-mgb at googlegroups.com>
>> *Subject:* Re: Off topic. Your mileage may vary. WAS Re: [Mgs] New MG
>> Sports Car Concept
>>
>> Jason of Engineering Explained, bought a Telsa Model 3 last year. He's
>> done 2 2500 mile road trips, summer, and winter. And, of course, has done
>> youtube videos for them. Worth a look.
>>
>> I hadn't heard that the batteries only last 50k miles. The first hit on a
>> google search says 100-150k and/or 8 years.
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 2:19 PM Paul Noble <noblepa at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I've wondered about the same things, regarding electric and hybrid cars.
>>
>> Another thing to consider is that lithium is environmentally problematic,
>> both in mining it and disposing of it.
>>
>> The problem is that gasoline is still one of the most economical, safest
>> and densest way to transport energy. In most cases, a tank of gasoline will
>> take a car farther than a fully charged battery will.
>>
>> The battery pack is usually much larger than the gas tank, and a lot
>> heavier.
>>
>> I've never owned a Prius or any other hybrid, but I've heard that you're
>> lucky to get 50,000 miles on a set of batteries. Replacing them costs about
>> $3-4k. That's one reason I wouldn't even consider a used Prius, unless the
>> seller showed me receipts for a very recent battery replacement. A Prius
>> (or Tesla for that matter) without batteries is like a conventional car
>> without an engine. It might be a good deal, but you have to factor in the
>> cost of replacing the batteries or engine.
>>
>> Current (no pun intended) technology requires, I believe, a couple of
>> hours, at least, to recharge a fully depleted set of batteries on a fully
>> electric vehicle. That makes long trips a problem, if you have to stop
>> every four hours for a two hour recharge. They could probably speed up the
>> charging process but that would require much higher voltages or current
>> flow, both of which can be dangerous and create heat dissipation problems.
>>
>> I've heard stories that rescue workers have been injured when trying to
>> cut someone out of a crashed hybrid vehicle and accidentally cut through
>> the main battery cable. I know that first responders have been trained for
>> this now, but this remains a problem.
>>
>> Of course, there is a chicken/egg problem with public charging stations.
>> No one wants to spend a lot of money installing public charging stations
>> until there are a lot of EVs to use them. Conversely, many buyers are
>> reluctant to buy an EV because there are not many public charging stations.
>> That is why one of the features of the proposed infrastructure bill now
>> being debated in Congress includes funding to build charging stations.
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* 'Paul C Resch' via MG-MGA-MGB <mg-mga-mgb at googlegroups.com>
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 6, 2021 2:49 PM
>> *To:* James Dillner <spr1ng19 at outlook.com>; Dan DiBiase <
>> dan.dibiase at gmail.com>
>> *Cc:* PaulBHunt73 <paulbhunt73 at gmail.com>; mglist <mgs at autox.team.net>;
>> MG-MGA-MGB <mg-mga-mgb at googlegroups.com>
>> *Subject:* Off topic. Your mileage may vary. WAS Re: [Mgs] New MG Sports
>> Car Concept
>>
>> I am just looking to have a discussion, not an angry argument but feel I
>> am missing something.
>>
>> When I had a Mazda6 I noticed the similarity to the Tesla S. Turns out
>> same guy Franz von Holzhausen designed both.  Pretty similar.
>>
>> Presuming the cars mission is the same.  Build quality similar, tire
>> usage and performance in real world use equivalent I did some comparisons.
>> Stupid fast Tesla acceleration is as useless as the Masda6's 600 mile per
>> tank range.   My bladder needs stops more frequently than 9 hours.
>>
>> In 100,000 miles Tesla recharges ($22.00 for 250 miles, I got this from
>> Tesla) would run $8,800.
>>
>> In 100.00 at $2.75 a gallon, 35 miles per US Gallon and 10 - $65 oil
>> changes the total is about $8,500.
>>
>> But the Tesla costs over $70,000 and the Mazda6 half that.
>>
>> Even if recharging at home was free, in 100,000 I am $25,000 dollars
>> ahead.  I am negating resale.  A 100,000 Mazda6 is nicely broken in..
>> What's the $16.000 Tesla's battery life expectancy.  I just do not know.
>>
>> And a trip such as I just took to Montana last October, 5,000 miles would
>> be nearly impossible.
>>
>> I was in areas where gas stations were few and far between and charging
>> non-existent.  One hotel out of 13 had charging stations.  Rapid charging
>> hurts battery life.  Standing around for a half hour a couple of times a
>> day could get old.
>>
>> I think the European model of changeable battery packs is what will win.
>>
>> Design a platform where you pull in, drop the vehicle into a system much
>> like an automated car wash, and come back in 5 minutes with a fresh
>> battery.  Changed from below.
>>
>> Automatically changed.  SUVs might  have two batteries.  Trucks might
>> have more.
>>
>> Your state of charge, car's pathway and prediction of needed packs would
>> report to your car your assigned swap spot so A: you knew you would have a
>> battery ready and B: that there was no need to squeeze every last drop out
>> of yours.  You'd pay a charge to belong to the system and what your battery
>> had left. So if you wanted to stop every 2 hours for a rest break, just
>> swap the half used battery.
>>
>> I learned that in Wolfsburg's VW factory it is rare for the same model to
>> be built in order as the robots don't care.
>>
>> The infrastructure of charging stations and having enough spigots is
>> tough to see until many years from now.
>>
>> So please, I take trips, not a lot and yes, I could just rent a car for
>> trips, but the current model works for me.
>>
>> A fun read on this topic, tongue firmly in cheek is:
>>
>> 1915 Ford Model T vs. 2013 Tesla Model S: Race of the Centuries
>> <https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a15112705/2013-tesla-model-s-vs-1915-ford-model-t-race-of-the-centuries-feature/>
>>
>> 1915 Ford Model T vs. 2013 Tesla Model S: Race of the Centuries
>>
>> We stage a multi-state enduro to find out if today's automotive pioneer
>> can outrun its predecessor.
>>
>> <https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a15112705/2013-tesla-model-s-vs-1915-ford-model-t-race-of-the-centuries-feature/>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Paul Resch USA Cell phone 661-645-5266 email addresses pcresch at yahoo.com
>> resch at reschonline.com
>>
>>
>> On Tuesday, April 6, 2021, 12:47:33 PM CDT, Dan DiBiase <
>> dan.dibiase at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Yes, there are 7000-something individual cells bundled into about 15
>> modules that make up the battery pack in the Model 3/Y (77kWh battery).
>>
>> Dan D
>> Central NJ USA
>> http://dandibiase.cbintouch.com/
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 12:07 PM James Dillner <spr1ng19 at outlook.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> This is a bit off topic, but did anyone see the pictures of the Tesla
>> wreck where the battery pack tore apart?  There were thousands of little
>> sub-c cells.....batteries.....scattered all over the place.  Somehow I
>> never dreamed that those power packs were made up of cells all linked
>> together.
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* mg-mga-mgb at googlegroups.com <mg-mga-mgb at googlegroups.com> on
>> behalf of PaulBHunt73 <paulbhunt73 at gmail.com>
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 6, 2021 11:40 AM
>> *Cc:* mglist <mgs at autox.team.net>; MG-MGA-MGB <
>> MG-MGA-MGB at googlegroups.com>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Mgs] New MG Sports Car Concept
>>
>> Each to their own.  I can't see myself ever buying an EV based on the
>> current range and recharging situation where they are little more than toys
>> for local journeys.  If I get to the point when I'm still around and
>> driving but run out of satisfactory used 'real' cars to buy then I shall
>> revert to using my V8 as a daily driver as I did before.
>>
>> PaulH.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>
>> Hans - one could argue that this concept IS a modern set-up.... ;-) Based
>> on my first month with my Tesla Model Y, I'd absolutely consider anything
>> with an electric drivetrain from this point on. I don't plan to buy another
>> internal combustion vehicle for my daily use.
>>
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