<div dir="ltr">A lot to unpack with all of these messages.....!<div><br></div><div>I am probably the only one here that has an electric vehicle, so guess I should chime in. If you like, you can check out my blog at <a href="https://electricallyspeaking.blogspot.com/2021/04/tesla-model-y-one-month-report.html">https://electricallyspeaking.blogspot.com/2021/04/tesla-model-y-one-month-report.html</a></div><div><br></div><div>I have the Tesla Model Y, which is the latest model, being a CUV version of the Model 3 sedan (about 75% interchangeability). The version I have is the AWD Long Range. The only options I got was the color (Deep Metallic Blue) and a tow hitch (mainly for a bike rack). It was $53k out the door (no sales tax in NJ for BEV's). If I had taken delivery in December of 2020, I could have gotten a $5k rebate from the state. If I waited until after 7/1/21, there is a chance I could have gotten a $5k point-of-sale discount from the state of NJ (funding still TBD). And there is talk of renewing the $7500 Federal Tax Credit for all made-in-US BEV's, which would include Tesla and Chevy (both of whom have sold over 200k electric vehicles so they currently don't qualify). I took delivery one month ago, because I wanted the car and was tired of waiting for 'maybes' and 'what ifs'. Saving the 6.625% sales tax was good enough for me.</div><div><br></div><div>The battery warranty on my car is 8 years/120k miles. The EPA rated range is 326 miles; real world is more like 280 - 290 depending on conditions (speed, temperature, elevation changes, etc). The entire battery is unlikely to go bad at once. Individual modules can be replaced (there are about 15 in my car). Elon Musk has estimated the cost at about $5k to replace a module - that is today's cost. Battery replacement in it's entirety is around $15k currently. </div><div><br></div><div>The Tesla replaced my 2014 Mazda CX-5 CUV, which had 147k miles on it. It still ran well but was getting to the point where stuff was going to start going wrong and I have to be able to depend on my car. An electric car fits my needs perfectly. I'm a realtor so generally drive locally only, have no daily commute and need a large enough space for signs and misc crap. I've liked Teslas since the Roadster came out in 2008 and have owned the stock for a number of years. </div><div><br></div><div>You can read my first blog post to see in detail why I wanted an electric car - I do think we need to do a better job reducing greenhouse gases individually and our energy system is going to become more renewables-based as the years go by. Being a 'car guy', electric power is the next wave of technology and is here to stay - the Tesla is essentially a computer that also happens to be a very capable car. And the acceleration is insane for a 4500 lb vehicle. My model does 0-60 in 4.8 seconds. The Performance version of the MY is 4.2 secs. The new Model S Plaid will be under 2 seconds with 400+ miles of range.... Pretty stellar numbers. for a sedan that can hold 5 people.....</div><div><br></div><div>I have a 240v charger in my garage that cost $800 to install (mostly because the electrician had to run the wire 45 ft from my panel to the garage). It adds about 25 miles of range for every hour. I charge overnight with off-peak rates (about half of peak rates). I've only had the car a month so haven't gotten a bill yet to see how much it is actually costing me. Travelling shouldn't be too difficult as Tesla has a Supercharger network of charger that cover about 90% of the US - about every 120 miles or so on the OInterstates, of plenty of locations off them as well. There is one 10 minutes from my house. I charge to a max of 80% every night. Tesla advises keeping the charge levels between 20% - 80% to prolong battery life. When I do take a road trip, I will charge to 100% right before I leave. Plenty of folks charge to 100% frequently and haven't experienced much battery degradation over time. Most reports indicate that charging in general is less expensive than buying gas. </div><div><br></div><div>Maintenance - obviously, no oil changes. You also get much longer life out of brakes as you rarely use them (regenerative braking from the electric motors, which put energy back into the battery). No exhaust system. No fuel pump. No ignition system. Etc. Tires, you might have to replace more often - these are heavy vehicles. There are maintenance items that need to be checked but they are the normal things - A/C service, cabin air filters, brakes (rarely though). The battery is liquid cooled but there isn't any maintenance schedule that I could find. Oh, and you have to put windshield washer fluid in it...</div><div><br></div><div>I covered a lot and this is probably too long a read - sorry. But just wanted to lay out a few basics here, based on my personal experience to date.. The Tesla community is a large one - they have over a million vehicles on the road now - and growing larger every day. And every new EV that is announced is a good thing. Tesla isn't going away. Most of the new EV's that are coming out aren't targeted at Tesla but ICE vehicles. That's where the real benefit will come from.</div><div><br></div><div>Dan D</div><div>Central NJ USA<br clear="all"><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><a href="http://dandibiase.cbintouch.com/" target="_blank">http://dandibiase.cbintouch.com/</a></div></div></div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 4:31 PM Paul Root <<a href="mailto:ptroot@gmail.com">ptroot@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">The references I saw was 8 year 100k warranty for most of the US, 10 year 150K for California. <div><br></div><div>The closest apples to apples that I see would be the Ford Focus electric, or the VW Golf E-something. </div><div><br></div><div>I think Telsa cost so much because they are luxury cars. Also, Telsa is really a software company, not a car company. I'm still not convinced they will make it as more car companies start building more electric cars. Reports I've seen, is that build quality for the Model 3, especially, is not great. </div><div><br></div><div>I don't buy cars very often, If I buy 4 more cars (daily drivers) in my life, I would bet at least 2 will still have an engine. </div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 3:06 PM Paul Noble <<a href="mailto:noblepa@hotmail.com" target="_blank">noblepa@hotmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
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<span>When I said I had heard that batteries only lasted 50k miles, that was a few years ago. Perhaps I was misinformed or perhaps the batteries have improved.</span></div>
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<span>That said, I am still not convinced of the economics of the situation.</span></div>
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<span>It is difficult to make any kind of direct comparison between a gasoline and an electric car. No one has, to my knowledge, ever put a gasoline engine in a Tesla. And while there have been many conversions in the opposite direction (replacing a gas engine
with electric), these were not production vehicles. All the ones I've seen have simply replaced the gas engine with an electric motor, while retaining the transmission, clutch and differential. This is not optimal. </span></div>
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<span>The closest comparison I've ever seen was between a gasoline Honda Civic and the hybrid version of the same car. IIRC, the gas version got around 40 mpg, while the hybrid got 45. Given that the hybrid was over $3k more than the gas version, the payback
period was many years.</span></div>
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Why does a Tesla cost so much? Who knows. It is almost certainly, in part, because it is electric. But there are other factors, as well. Compared to GM, Honda and Toyota, the Tesla is a pretty limited production vehicle. Secondly, it costs a LOT of money to
start a car company from the ground up. Just ask Malcom Bricklin or John DeLorean. It may also be that Elon Musk made a conscious decision to position the Tesla in an upscale market for luxury cars. For some buyers, the high price is not a hindrance, but the
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As far as EVs go, we're still in the early-adopter stage. As more and more vehicles become available, the economics will stabilize and the prices will come down. </div>
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I'm guessing that in twenty years, maybe less, EVs will be the norm. Gas vehicles will be a niche product, sort of like vinyl records have become. Right now, there are teething pains that must be overcome, and technical improvements that must be made, but all
that will happen. One area that I suspect gas vehicles can never compete with electric vehicles is emissions. Gas cars will never reach zero emissions. EVs are already there.</div>
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<div id="gmail-m_663231247595694235gmail-m_-3434465552149103660divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font color="#000000" face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b> Paul Root <<a href="mailto:ptroot@gmail.com" target="_blank">ptroot@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, April 6, 2021 3:30 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Paul Noble <<a href="mailto:noblepa@hotmail.com" target="_blank">noblepa@hotmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> mglist <<a href="mailto:mgs@autox.team.net" target="_blank">mgs@autox.team.net</a>>; MG-MGA-MGB <<a href="mailto:mg-mga-mgb@googlegroups.com" target="_blank">mg-mga-mgb@googlegroups.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Off topic. Your mileage may vary. WAS Re: [Mgs] New MG Sports Car Concept</font>
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<div dir="ltr">Jason of Engineering Explained, bought a Telsa Model 3 last year. He's done 2 2500 mile road trips, summer, and winter. And, of course, has done youtube videos for them. Worth a look.
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<div>I hadn't heard that the batteries only last 50k miles. The first hit on a google search says 100-150k and/or 8 years.</div>
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<div dir="ltr">On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 2:19 PM Paul Noble <<a href="mailto:noblepa@hotmail.com" target="_blank">noblepa@hotmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
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<span>I've wondered about the same things, regarding electric and hybrid cars.</span></div>
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<span>Another thing to consider is that lithium is environmentally problematic, both in mining it and disposing of it.</span></div>
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<span>The problem is that gasoline is still one of the most economical, safest and densest way to transport energy. In most cases, a tank of gasoline will take a car farther than a fully charged battery will.</span></div>
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<span>The battery pack is usually much larger than the gas tank, and a lot heavier.</span></div>
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<span>I've never owned a Prius or any other hybrid, but I've heard that you're lucky to get 50,000 miles on a set of batteries. Replacing them costs about $3-4k. That's one reason I wouldn't even consider a used Prius, unless the seller showed me receipts for
a very recent battery replacement. A Prius (or Tesla for that matter) without batteries is like a conventional car without an engine. It might be a good deal, but you have to factor in the cost of replacing the batteries or engine.</span></div>
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Current (no pun intended) technology requires, I believe, a couple of hours, at least, to recharge a fully depleted set of batteries on a fully electric vehicle. That makes long trips a problem, if you have to stop every four hours for a two hour recharge.
They could probably speed up the charging process but that would require much higher voltages or current flow, both of which can be dangerous and create heat dissipation problems.</div>
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I've heard stories that rescue workers have been injured when trying to cut someone out of a crashed hybrid vehicle and accidentally cut through the main battery cable. I know that first responders have been trained for this now, but this remains a problem.</div>
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Of course, there is a chicken/egg problem with public charging stations. No one wants to spend a lot of money installing public charging stations until there are a lot of EVs to use them. Conversely, many buyers are reluctant to buy an EV because there are
not many public charging stations. That is why one of the features of the proposed infrastructure bill now being debated in Congress includes funding to build charging stations.</div>
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<div id="gmail-m_663231247595694235gmail-m_-3434465552149103660x_gmail-m_-6992287651865967615divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font color="#000000" face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b> 'Paul C Resch' via MG-MGA-MGB <<a href="mailto:mg-mga-mgb@googlegroups.com" target="_blank">mg-mga-mgb@googlegroups.com</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, April 6, 2021 2:49 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> James Dillner <<a href="mailto:spr1ng19@outlook.com" target="_blank">spr1ng19@outlook.com</a>>; Dan DiBiase <<a href="mailto:dan.dibiase@gmail.com" target="_blank">dan.dibiase@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> PaulBHunt73 <<a href="mailto:paulbhunt73@gmail.com" target="_blank">paulbhunt73@gmail.com</a>>; mglist <<a href="mailto:mgs@autox.team.net" target="_blank">mgs@autox.team.net</a>>; MG-MGA-MGB <<a href="mailto:mg-mga-mgb@googlegroups.com" target="_blank">mg-mga-mgb@googlegroups.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Off topic. Your mileage may vary. WAS Re: [Mgs] New MG Sports Car Concept</font>
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<div dir="ltr">I am just looking to have a discussion, not an angry argument but feel I am missing something.</div>
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<div dir="ltr">When I had a Mazda6 I noticed the similarity to the Tesla S. Turns out same guy Franz von Holzhausen designed both. Pretty similar.</div>
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<div dir="ltr">Presuming the cars mission is the same. Build quality similar, tire usage and performance in real world use equivalent I did some comparisons. Stupid fast Tesla acceleration is as useless as the Masda6's 600 mile per tank range. My bladder
needs stops more frequently than 9 hours.</div>
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<div dir="ltr">In 100,000 miles Tesla recharges ($22.00 for 250 miles, I got this from Tesla) would run $8,800.</div>
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<div dir="ltr">In 100.00 at $2.75 a gallon, 35 miles per US Gallon and 10 - $65 oil changes the total is about $8,500.</div>
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<div dir="ltr">But the Tesla costs over $70,000 and the Mazda6 half that.</div>
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<div dir="ltr">Even if recharging at home was free, in 100,000 I am $25,000 dollars ahead. I am negating resale. A 100,000 Mazda6 is nicely broken in.. What's the $16.000 Tesla's battery life expectancy. I just do not know.</div>
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<div dir="ltr">And a trip such as I just took to Montana last October, 5,000 miles would be nearly impossible.</div>
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<div dir="ltr">I was in areas where gas stations were few and far between and charging non-existent. One hotel out of 13 had charging stations. Rapid charging hurts battery life. Standing around for a half hour a couple of times a day could get old.</div>
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<div dir="ltr">I think the European model of changeable battery packs is what will win.</div>
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<div dir="ltr">Design a platform where you pull in, drop the vehicle into a system much like an automated car wash, and come back in 5 minutes with a fresh battery. Changed from below.</div>
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<div dir="ltr">Automatically changed. SUVs might have two batteries. Trucks might have more.</div>
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<div dir="ltr">Your state of charge, car's pathway and prediction of needed packs would report to your car your assigned swap spot so A: you knew you would have a battery ready and B: that there was no need to squeeze every last drop out of yours. You'd pay
a charge to belong to the system and what your battery had left. So if you wanted to stop every 2 hours for a rest break, just swap the half used battery.</div>
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<div dir="ltr">I learned that in Wolfsburg's VW factory it is rare for the same model to be built in order as the robots don't care.</div>
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<div dir="ltr">The infrastructure of charging stations and having enough spigots is tough to see until many years from now.</div>
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<div dir="ltr">So please, I take trips, not a lot and yes, I could just rent a car for trips, but the current model works for me.</div>
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<div dir="ltr">A fun read on this topic, tongue firmly in cheek is:</div>
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<div dir="ltr"><a href="https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a15112705/2013-tesla-model-s-vs-1915-ford-model-t-race-of-the-centuries-feature/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">1915 Ford Model T vs. 2013 Tesla Model S: Race of the Centuries</a><br>
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<p style="font-size:12px;line-height:16px;margin:0px;color:rgb(151,155,167)">We stage a multi-state enduro to find out if today's automotive pioneer can outrun its predecessor.</p>
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<div>Paul Resch USA Cell phone 661-645-5266 email addresses <a href="mailto:pcresch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">
pcresch@yahoo.com</a> <a href="mailto:resch@reschonline.com" target="_blank">resch@reschonline.com</a></div>
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<div>On Tuesday, April 6, 2021, 12:47:33 PM CDT, Dan DiBiase <<a href="mailto:dan.dibiase@gmail.com" target="_blank">dan.dibiase@gmail.com</a>> wrote:
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<div dir="ltr">Yes, there are 7000-something individual cells bundled into about 15 modules that make up the battery pack in the Model 3/Y (77kWh battery).
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<div dir="ltr"><a href="http://dandibiase.cbintouch.com/" rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank">http://dandibiase.cbintouch.com/</a></div>
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<div dir="ltr">On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 12:07 PM James Dillner <<a href="mailto:spr1ng19@outlook.com" rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank">spr1ng19@outlook.com</a>> wrote:<br clear="none">
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This is a bit off topic, but did anyone see the pictures of the Tesla wreck where the battery pack tore apart? There were thousands of little sub-c cells.....batteries.....scattered all over the place. Somehow I never dreamed that those power packs were made
up of cells all linked together. <br clear="none">
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<font color="#000000" face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b>
<a href="mailto:mg-mga-mgb@googlegroups.com" rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank">
mg-mga-mgb@googlegroups.com</a> <<a href="mailto:mg-mga-mgb@googlegroups.com" rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank">mg-mga-mgb@googlegroups.com</a>> on behalf of PaulBHunt73 <<a href="mailto:paulbhunt73@gmail.com" rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank">paulbhunt73@gmail.com</a>><br clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, April 6, 2021 11:40 AM<br clear="none">
<b>Cc:</b> mglist <<a href="mailto:mgs@autox.team.net" rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank">mgs@autox.team.net</a>>; MG-MGA-MGB <<a href="mailto:MG-MGA-MGB@googlegroups.com" rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank">MG-MGA-MGB@googlegroups.com</a>><br clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Mgs] New MG Sports Car Concept</font>
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<div><font size="2">Each to their own. I can't see myself ever buying an EV based on the current range and recharging situation where they are little more than toys for local journeys. I</font><font size="2">f I get to the point when I'm still around and
driving but run out of satisfactory used 'real' cars to buy then I shall revert to using my V8 as a daily driver as I did before.</font></div>
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<div><font size="2">PaulH.</font></div>
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<div>Hans - one could argue that this concept IS a modern set-up.... ;-) Based on my first month with my Tesla Model Y, I'd absolutely consider anything with an electric drivetrain from this point on. I don't plan to buy another internal combustion vehicle
for my daily use.</div>
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