[Healeys] Healeys Digest, Vol 16, Issue 299
Craig Cooper
craiginchico at gmail.com
Sun Dec 17 13:09:20 MST 2023
Re: Recent 100 M on BaT
Rick and Bob: I did it. I was the one who posted on BaT Nov.16 that there
is a problem with the front shock towers and maybe half a dozen other
issues that went unanswered. Being incredulous at the number of issues on
the bottom of the car, considering how glowingly it was being presented, I
showed the pictures to my fellow Healey 100 obsessed neighbor who said
"Aren't those BN1 shock towers?" I had also recently watched the walk
around video and simply couldn't contain myself. Maybe it would have been
better to just reach out to the seller, but I didn't think of that until
just now. Contrary to being savage, I think my remarks showed restraint.
There is a lot more there, and I didn't mention any of the top side
problems. (Bob, I laughed when I read your "ashtray delete" remark) I
think the open discussion of shortcomings of cars listed on BaT benefits
both the buyer and the seller. Imagine the embarrassment of a neophyte
Healey 100 enthusiast having paid top dollar for this car entering it in a
concours ("would be welcome and do well in any concours") and having it
judged to AH Club USA concours standards, or more likely declined to be
judged. Think he might seek legal remedy? I wouldn't want to be the guy
who sold it to him.
On Sun, Dec 17, 2023 at 11:01 AM <healeys-request at autox.team.net> wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Recent 100M on BAT (Mark Bradakis)
> 2. Re: Recent 100M on BAT (Bob Spidell)
> 3. Re: Recent 100M on BAT (rfbegani at gmail.com)
> 4. Re: Recent 100M on BAT (David Masucci)
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Mark Bradakis <mark at bradakis.com>
> To: healeys at autox.team.net
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 13:56:44 -0700
> Subject: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
> On 12/16/23 9:55 AM, Curtis Arndt via Healeys wrote:
> > Regarding the 100M Registry, Lynn Martin and I volunteered to take over
> > the registry, but after several hours of discussion, the cost of doing
> > so came up and we decided that the price of admission was way too high
> > for something with little to no financial gain and a lot of work
> involved.
>
> Try running Team Net for 30+ years!
>
> mjb.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net>
> To: HealeyRick <healeyrik at gmail.com>
> Cc: Michael Oritt <michael.oritt at gmail.com>, "healeys at autox.team.net" <
> healeys at autox.team.net>
> Bcc:
> Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 16:43:03 -0800
> Subject: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
> Rick,
>
> Last I heard, the owner was working with BaT to present another listing
> for this car (or did it sell?). If it's presented truthfully, as having a
> replacement chassis and possibly carbs and distributor I'd have no issues
> with it; it is, essentially, an 'M equivalent' with a (likely) reduced
> price. The commenters did a potential buyer a favor; if s/he knows what
> s/he got, and is happy with it, that's great.
>
> Bob
>
>
> On 12/16/2023 9:31 AM, HealeyRick wrote:
>
> Bob,
>
> As I prepare to write this month's "Auction Report" for the *Healey
> Marque *this 100M discussion has been really helpful and interesting. I
> think your comment " I was surprised Bill let the incorrect carbs and
> distributor slide " raises a great question of what exactly is the 100M
> certificate certifying? Bill Meade has written an article on what needs to
> be presented to be certified.
> https://www.100mregistry.com/PROTECTING_YOUR_100M_Feb_2013.pdf
> <https://www.100mregistry.com/PROTECTING_YOUR_100M_Feb_2013.pdf> But it
> seems to me it mainly focuses on the body parts that it left the factory
> with. I find it interesting there's no necessity for pictures of the engine
> number. And even if all the body parts, carbs, and distributor aren't
> there, Bill says in the article "If some of these items are missing, let
> the Registry know. It normally does not prevent registration provided
> enough ID points are present." So my impression, which I'll try to verify
> with Bill, is the certification is focused on the question whether this is
> the car that left the factory that matches the BMIHT certificate saying it
> had a louvered hood and not so much on whether it still has all the
> original parts an M would have come with.
> I think one of the benefits of the BaT comments for buyers (and
> probably not so much for sellers) is pointing out major deficiencies with
> an offering. Some buyer might have paid way more this car than it would be
> worth if not for the "savage" comments.
>
> Happy Healeydays
> Rick Neville
>
> On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 11:46 AM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> I think that's indisputable (I unintentionally neglected to mention that
>> aspect). That, and the fact the kits were selling made a case for selling
>> the M (these days, that would take an army of marketing people to figure
>> out, with lots of 'data' of course, and maybe some AI). Doesn't negate the
>> strong showing of taking, IIRC, 3 cars off the lot--or was that the
>> Bonneville cars?--hanging a few fancy bits on it and giving the bespoke
>> Ferraris, Jags, Astons, Mercedeses etc. a run for their money (the Healeys'
>> rugged simplicity likely helped). DMH was a brilliant marketer and
>> salesman; he spotted the 'niche' hole between lower--performance MGs--we're
>> talking TCs and TDs, not Bs and Cs--and higher-performance but much more
>> expensive Jaguars and plugged it. History says he drove cross-county in the
>> US to gauge the market; probably why he made overdrive an option from the
>> get-go, for the wide-open US highways. I don't know Triumph history that
>> well, was the TR2 a contemporary of the 100?
>>
>> How many times have you been asked what your Healey is worth--usually by
>> a 'not-a-car-person'--and you've replied 'Whatever someone will pay me for
>> it' (then, if the person seems genuinely interested I may give a run-down
>> of the contemporary market; these days 'not so good'). It's the same with
>> other marques; witness the number of Chevelle SS 'tribute' cars going
>> across the block at auctions. Genuine Ms can command a 50-100% premium over
>> comparable 100s; hence the intensity of the interest and critique. Did you
>> watch the BaT auction? It was pretty savage and enlightening, to me; I was
>> surprised Bill let the incorrect carbs and distributor slide (maybe he was
>> tired of doing the registry thing).
>>
>> From the late, great Gary Anderson:
>>
>>
>> https://austinhealeyconcoursregistry.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/The-Heritage-of-the-100M-G.-Anderson.pdf
>>
>>
>> On 12/16/2023 6:46 AM, Michael Oritt wrote:
>>
>> Some feel that since DMH knew he was going to change over to a new car
>> (the 100-6) he figured out a clever marketing ploy to get rid of what might
>> otherwise have become a less-than-desirable inventory of late production
>> 100's by outfitting some of the cars with the snazzy M upgrade. If so it
>> was probably never his intention nor in his comprehension to produce what
>> has ironically become a very special Healey second only to the 100-S in
>> collectibility.
>>
>> Best--Michael Oritt
>>
>> On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 1:31 AM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>> The M was rated at 110HP--more if you got the optional branch
>>> extractor--as opposed to a stock BN2's 90HP. That's a 22% increase in
>>> power; I'd call that significant. Also, how do you 'hang' a camshaft and
>>> pistons on an engine (the mechanics were supposed to pull the engine, but
>>> if DMH and Geoff weren't around they'd cheat and do the mods in situ)?
>>>
>>> I think at least part of the value of an M is that it made an appearance
>>> at the Healey factory, possibly with DMH and/or Geoff in attendance, as
>>> opposed to just coming off the Austin assembly line. Also, the
>>> modifications were, for the most part, the same as made to the cars that
>>> ran at LeMans in '52 ('53?) and came in 13th (or 14th) overall. When
>>> customers started asking for the same modifications DMH first sold a kit,
>>> then the complete car (anyone remember 'Race on Sunday, sell on Monday?').
>>>
>>> I'd say the market has spoken, since genuine M cars command a
>>> significant price premium (hence why of the original, documented 640 cars
>>> only 3,000 remain).
>>>
>>> bs
>>>
>>>
>>> On 12/15/2023 2:16 PM, Michael Salter wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm not an "M" guy really because as someone mentioned there isn't that
>>> much to hanging the "modification " parts on any 100.
>>> If the "M" designation involved significant performance modifications,
>>> say like an "M" series BMW, which could not be easily copied, then I would
>>> consider them be very special.
>>> I understand that Mr Meade has now sold his "M" so would not be
>>> surprised to see the "Registry" fade away.
>>> Just my opinion.
>>>
>>> M
>>>
>>> On Fri., Dec. 15, 2023, 1:59 p.m. josef-eckert--- via Healeys, <
>>> healeys at autox.team.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> What makes a 100M?
>>>> Very good question and not easy to answer.
>>>>
>>>> In my opinion, an Austin-Healey 100M, especially as the price category is significantly higher than the normal 100,
>>>> is a car that any modification reduces its value. A heavily modified 100M is nothing special. It's a modified 100 and
>>>> no longer an M. But this is my personal opinion. A new chassis would be such a major modification for me, as would a
>>>> conversion to disc brakes at the front or a conversion to a Weber carburettors, etc. This would be simply no longer a
>>>> Genuine 100M. I would then rather buy an original Austin-Healey 100 for the same money. But I have to admit, for me
>>>> the hype surrounding the 100M is far exaggerated for what the car is. It's a special model with a little more
>>>> horsepower, but not anything particularly special. Its like an Alpina BMW or a AMG Mercedes.
>>>>
>>>> Josef Eckert
>>>> Germany
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original-Nachricht-----
>>>>
>>>> Betreff: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
>>>>
>>>> Datum: 2023-12-15T18:07:16+0100
>>>>
>>>> Von: "Bob Spidell" <bspidell at comcast.net>
>>>>
>>>> An: "HealeyRick" <healeyrik at gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Note the Registry will also certify 'Le Mans Conversions,' which may be
>>>> what Kent's nasty is/was. Some have noted you can build a 'better M' with
>>>> aftermarket parts (Isky cam, alloy head, SBC, etc.).
>>>>
>>>> I don't think either Kilmartin or Jules makes a 100 chassis, but I'd be
>>>> somewhat more sympathetic to that, but not so much hanging an M body and
>>>> parts on a BN1 (a BN2, *maybe*). The main problem I see is an earnest
>>>> owner may sell a conversion (aka 'counterfeit') with full disclosure, but
>>>> an owner or two down the road the 'Tribute' tag has been conveniently
>>>> forgotten (I'm not all in on 'tribute' anything, be they cars or rock
>>>> bands).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 12/15/2023 7:17 AM, HealeyRick wrote:
>>>>
>>>> This is all hypothesis based on speculation so take it with that
>>>> caveat. Let's say one had a rusty factory 100M that was so bad it needed a
>>>> new frame. How hard would it be to transfer the 100M body parts over to a
>>>> solid BN1 chassis along with the oh-so-valuable chassis plate? The 100M
>>>> Registry seems to focus mostly on the original body parts and cockpit
>>>> surrounds to certify a car. Even cars with non-original engines have been
>>>> registered. I'm pretty certain Kent Lacy's Nasty M was on the registry. So
>>>> is the BaT car still an M? Some pretty valuable race cars have been
>>>> crashed and fitted with new chassis and still bring big money at auction.
>>>>
>>>> To me, what makes an M an M is the motor. If an M no longer has its
>>>> original motor, or equal replacement, it has lost its character as an M.
>>>> Otherwise, it's a BN2 with a louvered hood. It's almost like if a Sunbeam
>>>> Tiger blew its motor and it was replaced with an Alpine motor. Sure, it's
>>>> got the right serial number on the unibody, but it's not much of a Tiger
>>>> anymore. The BaT car with what appears to be non-original carbs and
>>>> distributor caused me concern. Who would remove those from an original M
>>>> motor? C'mon 100M sellers, pop the valve cover, remove the rockers and put
>>>> a dial indicator on the pushrods so we can see if there is still a 100M cam
>>>> in the lump!
>>>>
>>>> Happy Healeydays,
>>>> Rick Neville
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 1:05 PM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Excellent report, thank you.
>>>>>
>>>>> I was one of the commenters on BaT--I joined BaT to comment--but,
>>>>> since I have a BN2/100M I'm not familiar with BN1 differences and could
>>>>> only point out obvious differences with my car (which was completely
>>>>> original as far as I can tell, except for extensive body work). One thing
>>>>> that was somewhat disturbing to me is that the Registry certified this car,
>>>>> while noting some major anomalies (the carbs, for instance, looked to be
>>>>> new and didn't have the hand scribing like my car).
>>>>>
>>>>> The other thing that interested me is, how do you value this car? Yes,
>>>>> it's a very nice car, probably a good driver but, IMO, its value
>>>>> *should* be less than a comparably restored, original BN1 or BN2.
>>>>> And, what did the previous owner know, or should have known about this car?
>>>>> How do you present it for sale; as a BN1 with 'M bits?' It would need the
>>>>> proverbial asterisk alongside the page title.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bob
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 12/14/2023 8:15 AM, S and T Miller wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> If you were following it recently, you might find my observations
>>>>> interesting. So I went down to Michael's motor cars to help him determine
>>>>> if the 100m indeed has a BN1 chassis. Here is what I found.
>>>>>
>>>>> It has the BN1 inner fenders with the rolled pressings. It has the BN1
>>>>> front brake hose frame mount the is less pronounced welded BN1 bracket, as
>>>>> the later cars have a bolted on bracket. The front shock towers have no
>>>>> evidence of being replaced and show the factory welds. The gearbox mount
>>>>> shows non-original/factory welds as if it were replaced to accommodate the
>>>>> BN2 mount.
>>>>>
>>>>> What I found most interesting is that where a BN1 has two OD relays
>>>>> mounted under the dash, it took shining a light it different directions to
>>>>> just make out the slight evidence of filled holes (4 of then for the two
>>>>> relays). And I was able to reach inside the vent just below that area with
>>>>> my fingers and feel the welds and welding wire that was used to fill those
>>>>> 4 holes. I can tell you someone took great care to try and make those holes
>>>>> seem as they never existed. Along with that, where a BN2 would have the
>>>>> single OD relay attached to the firewall with machine screws screwed into
>>>>> welded captive nuts on the firewall, you can see plain sheet screws were
>>>>> used to mount it in what would be a BN2 relay position.
>>>>>
>>>>> I also feel the engine tag is a repo because of the lighter stamping.
>>>>> Originals tend to have the numbers/ letters stamped with a deeper end
>>>>> result. I took my repo engine tag along to compare, and they appeared
>>>>> identical in the stampings. The body/ bath tag and VIN plate appear
>>>>> original. Now that doesn't mean that the engine isn't the correct M engine,
>>>>> because there could be many reasons why the engine tag was replaced. Anyone
>>>>> who drove a stock 100 compared to a 100M can attest to the difference in
>>>>> power, and Mike stated that it indeed has that M power.
>>>>>
>>>>> The boot lid shows no evidence of the stay bracket being swapped off
>>>>> another lid, and if you look closely you can see that the boot shows some
>>>>> previous age/life. I'd believe it to be original. I could not make out any
>>>>> evidence of the bonnet number being sliced in from a M bonnet, but I will
>>>>> say that the underside of the bonnet seemed suspiciously clean and
>>>>> prestine. I couldn't detect any age like the boot, but that would be for
>>>>> someone else to decide.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike had asked me if the cold air box was original, and I simply
>>>>> don't have that experience to know. I have anyways heard if it looks old,
>>>>> it's original. It does indeed look to have some age, so?
>>>>>
>>>>> I feel at some point in this car's life someone went to some effort to
>>>>> try and conceal that these 100M parts were reinstalled on a BN1 chassis.
>>>>> Another interesting note is that there was an attempt to fill the holes
>>>>> where a BN1 chassis plate is fitted on the frame rail. Perhaps the person
>>>>> didn't realize that the holes continued over to the BN2's, and thought they
>>>>> were erasing evidence of a BN1 chassis?
>>>>>
>>>>> With all that said, Mike is simply trying to represent the car
>>>>> correctly. The car is a very nice car! Paint is very nice, car is straight,
>>>>> and gaps look good. Interior is very nice, and looks to be a very good car
>>>>> all around. I didn't drive the car, but Mike has years of experience under
>>>>> his belt, so I'd trust his opinions on that. With the quality of the
>>>>> restoration, it is surprising that the front frame to shroud brackets were
>>>>> not welded to the frame. Chrome looks good, and I'd think winning some
>>>>> trophies at a popular vote car would not be an issue.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Millers
>>>>>
>>>>> "Always drive them, but remember each drive in an antique car is a
>>>>> test drive."
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>>>> Suggested annual donation $12.75
>>>>>
>>>>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
>>>>> http://autox.team.net/archive/healeys
>>>>>
>>>>> Healeys at autox.team.net
>>>>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>>>>>
>>>>> Unsubscribe/Manage:
>>>>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/healeyrik@gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>> _______________________________________________
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>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: <rfbegani at gmail.com>
> To: <josef-eckert at t-online.de>
> Cc: <healeys at autox.team.net>
> Bcc:
> Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2023 05:06:32 -0500
> Subject: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
>
> Dear Josef:
>
>
>
> Your comments are the same in the USA especially in Florida where there
> are large numbers of retired people. My good friend and President of our
> British Car Club Hermann Schuller formerly of Germany has said that younger
> people want Japanese or European sports cars. It is the same for those who
> enjoy boating. Sailors today are 55 to 80 years old. I had to give away
> my 1967 28-foot sailboat in good condition at our summer home on Lake
> Michigan as younger boaters want speed and comfort. I still have another
> younger 28-foot sailboat in Punta Gorda, Florida and will continue to sail
> in accordance with the agreement with my wife that I will not sail alone.
>
>
>
> Also, our British Car Club of SW Florida is very large and growing thanks
> to the efforts of Hermann who revived the club. He is a born salesman and
> a lover of old sports cars.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Bob Begani
>
> 67 BJ8
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Healeys <healeys-bounces at autox.team.net> *On Behalf Of *josef-eckert---
> via Healeys
> *Sent:* Saturday, December 16, 2023 1:15 PM
> *To:* Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net>; Michael Oritt <
> michael.oritt at gmail.com>
> *Cc:* healeys at autox.team.net
> *Subject:* Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
>
>
>
> As far as I can see here in Europe, the market for Austin-Healeys and
> comparable vehicles from the 1950s has collapsed extremely. It's like the
> pre-war vehicles. They can no longer keep up with today's traffic and on
> motorways they are quite problematic due to the high traffic density and
> the many trucks that also recklessly swerve to overtake. A 100M and also
> a 100 are no longer in demand. The clientele that still knows
> Austin-Healey from her past is almost extinct. Hardly anyone has met
> Donald Healey here. I'm 66 years old now and didn't know him either. I
> saw Geoff once before he died, but we knew Margot quite well, having met
> through friends. But back to the 100M. Hardly anyone here knows the
> difference between a 100 with a LeMans kit and a 100M. All of these are
> then usually offered as 100 Le Mans. If a genuine 100M is actually
> offered, the price is slightly higher than for a comparable 100, but not by
> a factor of 2. Nobody actually pays that here. There is also non who
> would pay 100K$ for a 100 or 100M. But as I said, Austin-Healeys are slow
> sellers and the 3000 BJ8 Ph2 is most in demand because it offers just
> enough comfort. But younger people don't want these old cars at all. They
> are looking for a BMW, Porsche or something else from the 70s or 80s that
> also offers more safety and comfort and that they know from their youth.
> Lower priced british cars like MG Bs are also out. They are too expensive
> compared to a Mazda MX-5, or Jaguar XK8 which are definitely the better
> cars compared.
>
> Btw.: The Austin-Healey clubs here have gotten pretty tired. The beautiful
> events like International healey Weekends that were offered 20 years ago
> are no longer offered in thre former glance for a long time. There are
> hardly any active people willing to do work for the clubs anymore. Those
> who do it are also a good 70 years old and what is then done is not really
> inviting. Many people now stay away from these events which are expensive,
> but not inviting.
>
>
>
> Josef Eckert
>
> Germany
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: David Masucci <dmasucci at charter.net>
> To: "josef-eckert at t-online.de" <josef-eckert at t-online.de>
> Cc: Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net>, Michael Oritt <
> michael.oritt at gmail.com>, Ahealey help <healeys at autox.team.net>
> Bcc:
> Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2023 08:10:57 -0500
> Subject: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
> All of this is inevitable, and not a bad thing. Let’s just continue to
> enjoy what we can while we can. There will be other passions that will
> entice follow-on generations to enjoy memories from their youth.
>
> Dave
>
> On Dec 16, 2023, at 1:14 PM, josef-eckert--- via Healeys <
> healeys at autox.team.net> wrote:
>
> As far as I can see here in Europe, the market for Austin-Healeys and
> comparable vehicles from the 1950s has collapsed extremely. It's like the
> pre-war vehicles. They can no longer keep up with today's traffic and on
> motorways they are quite problematic due to the high traffic density and
> the many trucks that also recklessly swerve to overtake. A 100M and also
> a 100 are no longer in demand. The clientele that still knows
> Austin-Healey from her past is almost extinct. Hardly anyone has met
> Donald Healey here. I'm 66 years old now and didn't know him either. I
> saw Geoff once before he died, but we knew Margot quite well, having met
> through friends. But back to the 100M. Hardly anyone here knows the
> difference between a 100 with a LeMans kit and a 100M. All of these are
> then usually offered as 100 Le Mans. If a genuine 100M is actually
> offered, the price is slightly higher than for a comparable 100, but not by
> a factor of 2. Nobody actually pays that here. There is also non who
> would pay 100K$ for a 100 or 100M. But as I said, Austin-Healeys are slow
> sellers and the 3000 BJ8 Ph2 is most in demand because it offers just
> enough comfort. But younger people don't want these old cars at all. They
> are looking for a BMW, Porsche or something else from the 70s or 80s that
> also offers more safety and comfort and that they know from their youth.
> Lower priced british cars like MG Bs are also out. They are too expensive
> compared to a Mazda MX-5, or Jaguar XK8 which are definitely the better
> cars compared.
> Btw.: The Austin-Healey clubs here have gotten pretty tired. The beautiful
> events like International healey Weekends that were offered 20 years ago
> are no longer offered in thre former glance for a long time. There are
> hardly any active people willing to do work for the clubs anymore. Those
> who do it are also a good 70 years old and what is then done is not really
> inviting. Many people now stay away from these events which are expensive,
> but not inviting.
>
>
> Josef Eckert
> Germany
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original-Nachricht-----
> Betreff: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
> Datum: 2023-12-16T17:41:57+0100
> Von: "Bob Spidell" <bspidell at comcast.net>
> An: "Michael Oritt" <michael.oritt at gmail.com>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I think that's indisputable (I unintentionally neglected to mention that
> aspect). That, and the fact the kits were selling made a case for selling
> the M (these days, that would take an army of marketing people to figure
> out, with lots of 'data' of course, and maybe some AI). Doesn't negate the
> strong showing of taking, IIRC, 3 cars off the lot--or was that the
> Bonneville cars?--hanging a few fancy bits on it and giving the bespoke
> Ferraris, Jags, Astons, Mercedeses etc. a run for their money (the Healeys'
> rugged simplicity likely helped). DMH was a brilliant marketer and
> salesman; he spotted the 'niche' hole between lower--performance MGs--we're
> talking TCs and TDs, not Bs and Cs--and higher-performance but much more
> expensive Jaguars and plugged it. History says he drove cross-county in the
> US to gauge the market; probably why he made overdrive an option from the
> get-go, for the wide-open US highways. I don't know Triumph history that
> well, was the TR2 a contemporary of the 100?
>
> How many times have you been asked what your Healey is worth--usually by a
> 'not-a-car-person'--and you've replied 'Whatever someone will pay me for
> it' (then, if the person seems genuinely interested I may give a run-down
> of the contemporary market; these days 'not so good'). It's the same with
> other marques; witness the number of Chevelle SS 'tribute' cars going
> across the block at auctions. Genuine Ms can command a 50-100% premium over
> comparable 100s; hence the intensity of the interest and critique. Did you
> watch the BaT auction? It was pretty savage and enlightening, to me; I was
> surprised Bill let the incorrect carbs and distributor slide (maybe he was
> tired of doing the registry thing).
>
> From the late, great Gary Anderson:
>
>
> https://austinhealeyconcoursregistry.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/The-Heritage-of-the-100M-G.-Anderson.pdf
>
>
> On 12/16/2023 6:46 AM, Michael Oritt wrote:
>
> Some feel that since DMH knew he was going to change over to a new car
> (the 100-6) he figured out a clever marketing ploy to get rid of what might
> otherwise have become a less-than-desirable inventory of late production
> 100's by outfitting some of the cars with the snazzy M upgrade. If so it
> was probably never his intention nor in his comprehension to produce what
> has ironically become a very special Healey second only to the 100-S in
> collectibility.
>
> Best--Michael Oritt
>
> On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 1:31 AM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> The M was rated at 110HP--more if you got the optional branch
>> extractor--as opposed to a stock BN2's 90HP. That's a 22% increase in
>> power; I'd call that significant. Also, how do you 'hang' a camshaft and
>> pistons on an engine (the mechanics were supposed to pull the engine, but
>> if DMH and Geoff weren't around they'd cheat and do the mods in situ)?
>>
>> I think at least part of the value of an M is that it made an appearance
>> at the Healey factory, possibly with DMH and/or Geoff in attendance, as
>> opposed to just coming off the Austin assembly line. Also, the
>> modifications were, for the most part, the same as made to the cars that
>> ran at LeMans in '52 ('53?) and came in 13th (or 14th) overall. When
>> customers started asking for the same modifications DMH first sold a kit,
>> then the complete car (anyone remember 'Race on Sunday, sell on Monday?').
>>
>> I'd say the market has spoken, since genuine M cars command a significant
>> price premium (hence why of the original, documented 640 cars only 3,000
>> remain).
>>
>> bs
>>
>>
>> On 12/15/2023 2:16 PM, Michael Salter wrote:
>>
>> I'm not an "M" guy really because as someone mentioned there isn't that
>> much to hanging the "modification " parts on any 100.
>> If the "M" designation involved significant performance modifications,
>> say like an "M" series BMW, which could not be easily copied, then I would
>> consider them be very special.
>> I understand that Mr Meade has now sold his "M" so would not be surprised
>> to see the "Registry" fade away.
>> Just my opinion.
>>
>> M
>>
>> On Fri., Dec. 15, 2023, 1:59 p.m. josef-eckert--- via Healeys, <
>> healeys at autox.team.net> wrote:
>>
>>> What makes a 100M? Very good question and not easy to answer. In my opinion, an Austin-Healey 100M, especially as the price category is significantly higher than the normal 100, is a car that any modification reduces its value. A heavily modified 100M is nothing special. It's a modified 100 and no longer an M. But this is my personal opinion. A new chassis would be such a major modification for me, as would a conversion to disc brakes at the front or a conversion to a Weber carburettors, etc. This would be simply no longer a Genuine 100M. I would then rather buy an original Austin-Healey 100 for the same money. But I have to admit, for me the hype surrounding the 100M is far exaggerated for what the car is. It's a special model with a little more horsepower, but not anything particularly special. Its like an Alpina BMW or a AMG Mercedes. Josef Eckert Germany
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original-Nachricht-----
>>> Betreff: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
>>> Datum: 2023-12-15T18:07:16+0100
>>> Von: "Bob Spidell" <bspidell at comcast.net>
>>> An: "HealeyRick" <healeyrik at gmail.com>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Note the Registry will also certify 'Le Mans Conversions,' which may be
>>> what Kent's nasty is/was. Some have noted you can build a 'better M' with
>>> aftermarket parts (Isky cam, alloy head, SBC, etc.).
>>>
>>> I don't think either Kilmartin or Jules makes a 100 chassis, but I'd be
>>> somewhat more sympathetic to that, but not so much hanging an M body and
>>> parts on a BN1 (a BN2, *maybe*). The main problem I see is an earnest
>>> owner may sell a conversion (aka 'counterfeit') with full disclosure, but
>>> an owner or two down the road the 'Tribute' tag has been conveniently
>>> forgotten (I'm not all in on 'tribute' anything, be they cars or rock
>>> bands).
>>>
>>>
>>> On 12/15/2023 7:17 AM, HealeyRick wrote:
>>>
>>> This is all hypothesis based on speculation so take it with that
>>> caveat. Let's say one had a rusty factory 100M that was so bad it needed a
>>> new frame. How hard would it be to transfer the 100M body parts over to a
>>> solid BN1 chassis along with the oh-so-valuable chassis plate? The 100M
>>> Registry seems to focus mostly on the original body parts and cockpit
>>> surrounds to certify a car. Even cars with non-original engines have been
>>> registered. I'm pretty certain Kent Lacy's Nasty M was on the registry. So
>>> is the BaT car still an M? Some pretty valuable race cars have been
>>> crashed and fitted with new chassis and still bring big money at auction.
>>>
>>> To me, what makes an M an M is the motor. If an M no longer has its
>>> original motor, or equal replacement, it has lost its character as an M.
>>> Otherwise, it's a BN2 with a louvered hood. It's almost like if a Sunbeam
>>> Tiger blew its motor and it was replaced with an Alpine motor. Sure, it's
>>> got the right serial number on the unibody, but it's not much of a Tiger
>>> anymore. The BaT car with what appears to be non-original carbs and
>>> distributor caused me concern. Who would remove those from an original M
>>> motor? C'mon 100M sellers, pop the valve cover, remove the rockers and put
>>> a dial indicator on the pushrods so we can see if there is still a 100M cam
>>> in the lump!
>>>
>>> Happy Healeydays,
>>> Rick Neville
>>>
>>> On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 1:05 PM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Excellent report, thank you.
>>>>
>>>> I was one of the commenters on BaT--I joined BaT to comment--but, since
>>>> I have a BN2/100M I'm not familiar with BN1 differences and could only
>>>> point out obvious differences with my car (which was completely original as
>>>> far as I can tell, except for extensive body work). One thing that was
>>>> somewhat disturbing to me is that the Registry certified this car, while
>>>> noting some major anomalies (the carbs, for instance, looked to be new and
>>>> didn't have the hand scribing like my car).
>>>>
>>>> The other thing that interested me is, how do you value this car? Yes,
>>>> it's a very nice car, probably a good driver but, IMO, its value
>>>> *should* be less than a comparably restored, original BN1 or BN2. And,
>>>> what did the previous owner know, or should have known about this car? How
>>>> do you present it for sale; as a BN1 with 'M bits?' It would need the
>>>> proverbial asterisk alongside the page title.
>>>>
>>>> Bob
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 12/14/2023 8:15 AM, S and T Miller wrote:
>>>>
>>>> If you were following it recently, you might find my observations
>>>> interesting. So I went down to Michael's motor cars to help him determine
>>>> if the 100m indeed has a BN1 chassis. Here is what I found.
>>>>
>>>> It has the BN1 inner fenders with the rolled pressings. It has the BN1
>>>> front brake hose frame mount the is less pronounced welded BN1 bracket, as
>>>> the later cars have a bolted on bracket. The front shock towers have no
>>>> evidence of being replaced and show the factory welds. The gearbox mount
>>>> shows non-original/factory welds as if it were replaced to accommodate the
>>>> BN2 mount.
>>>>
>>>> What I found most interesting is that where a BN1 has two OD relays
>>>> mounted under the dash, it took shining a light it different directions to
>>>> just make out the slight evidence of filled holes (4 of then for the two
>>>> relays). And I was able to reach inside the vent just below that area with
>>>> my fingers and feel the welds and welding wire that was used to fill those
>>>> 4 holes. I can tell you someone took great care to try and make those holes
>>>> seem as they never existed. Along with that, where a BN2 would have the
>>>> single OD relay attached to the firewall with machine screws screwed into
>>>> welded captive nuts on the firewall, you can see plain sheet screws were
>>>> used to mount it in what would be a BN2 relay position.
>>>>
>>>> I also feel the engine tag is a repo because of the lighter stamping.
>>>> Originals tend to have the numbers/ letters stamped with a deeper end
>>>> result. I took my repo engine tag along to compare, and they appeared
>>>> identical in the stampings. The body/ bath tag and VIN plate appear
>>>> original. Now that doesn't mean that the engine isn't the correct M engine,
>>>> because there could be many reasons why the engine tag was replaced. Anyone
>>>> who drove a stock 100 compared to a 100M can attest to the difference in
>>>> power, and Mike stated that it indeed has that M power.
>>>>
>>>> The boot lid shows no evidence of the stay bracket being swapped off
>>>> another lid, and if you look closely you can see that the boot shows some
>>>> previous age/life. I'd believe it to be original. I could not make out any
>>>> evidence of the bonnet number being sliced in from a M bonnet, but I will
>>>> say that the underside of the bonnet seemed suspiciously clean and
>>>> prestine. I couldn't detect any age like the boot, but that would be for
>>>> someone else to decide.
>>>>
>>>> Mike had asked me if the cold air box was original, and I simply don't
>>>> have that experience to know. I have anyways heard if it looks old, it's
>>>> original. It does indeed look to have some age, so?
>>>>
>>>> I feel at some point in this car's life someone went to some effort to
>>>> try and conceal that these 100M parts were reinstalled on a BN1 chassis.
>>>> Another interesting note is that there was an attempt to fill the holes
>>>> where a BN1 chassis plate is fitted on the frame rail. Perhaps the person
>>>> didn't realize that the holes continued over to the BN2's, and thought they
>>>> were erasing evidence of a BN1 chassis?
>>>>
>>>> With all that said, Mike is simply trying to represent the car
>>>> correctly. The car is a very nice car! Paint is very nice, car is straight,
>>>> and gaps look good. Interior is very nice, and looks to be a very good car
>>>> all around. I didn't drive the car, but Mike has years of experience under
>>>> his belt, so I'd trust his opinions on that. With the quality of the
>>>> restoration, it is surprising that the front frame to shroud brackets were
>>>> not welded to the frame. Chrome looks good, and I'd think winning some
>>>> trophies at a popular vote car would not be an issue.
>>>>
>>>> The Millers
>>>>
>>>> "Always drive them, but remember each drive in an antique car is a test
>>>> drive."
>>>>
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