[Healeys] Healeys Digest, Vol 16, Issue 299
HealeyRick
healeyrik at gmail.com
Sun Dec 17 16:29:46 MST 2023
Craig,
Ethical commenters on BaT need to walk a tightrope between helping bidders
avoid a mistake or pooching a seller's sale. I won't comment on a sale of
someone I know because I don't want to be accused of puffing their sale or
OTOH submarining one that is being offered by a friend. If a seller doesn't
want honest opinions, go offer it somewhere else and stay off BaT. Someone
who benefitted from your advice should be thankful. It's not supposed to
be a cheerleading squad every time a person puts a car up for auction.
Happy Healeydays,
Rick Neville
On Sun, Dec 17, 2023 at 3:52 PM Craig Cooper <craiginchico at gmail.com> wrote:
> Re: Recent 100 M on BaT
>
> Rick and Bob: I did it. I was the one who posted on BaT Nov.16 that
> there is a problem with the front shock towers and maybe half a dozen other
> issues that went unanswered. Being incredulous at the number of issues on
> the bottom of the car, considering how glowingly it was being presented, I
> showed the pictures to my fellow Healey 100 obsessed neighbor who said
> "Aren't those BN1 shock towers?" I had also recently watched the walk
> around video and simply couldn't contain myself. Maybe it would have been
> better to just reach out to the seller, but I didn't think of that until
> just now. Contrary to being savage, I think my remarks showed restraint.
> There is a lot more there, and I didn't mention any of the top side
> problems. (Bob, I laughed when I read your "ashtray delete" remark) I
> think the open discussion of shortcomings of cars listed on BaT benefits
> both the buyer and the seller. Imagine the embarrassment of a neophyte
> Healey 100 enthusiast having paid top dollar for this car entering it in a
> concours ("would be welcome and do well in any concours") and having it
> judged to AH Club USA concours standards, or more likely declined to be
> judged. Think he might seek legal remedy? I wouldn't want to be the guy
> who sold it to him.
>
>
>
> On Sun, Dec 17, 2023 at 11:01 AM <healeys-request at autox.team.net> wrote:
>
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>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. Re: Recent 100M on BAT (Mark Bradakis)
>> 2. Re: Recent 100M on BAT (Bob Spidell)
>> 3. Re: Recent 100M on BAT (rfbegani at gmail.com)
>> 4. Re: Recent 100M on BAT (David Masucci)
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: Mark Bradakis <mark at bradakis.com>
>> To: healeys at autox.team.net
>> Cc:
>> Bcc:
>> Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 13:56:44 -0700
>> Subject: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
>> On 12/16/23 9:55 AM, Curtis Arndt via Healeys wrote:
>> > Regarding the 100M Registry, Lynn Martin and I volunteered to take over
>> > the registry, but after several hours of discussion, the cost of doing
>> > so came up and we decided that the price of admission was way too high
>> > for something with little to no financial gain and a lot of work
>> involved.
>>
>> Try running Team Net for 30+ years!
>>
>> mjb.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net>
>> To: HealeyRick <healeyrik at gmail.com>
>> Cc: Michael Oritt <michael.oritt at gmail.com>, "healeys at autox.team.net" <
>> healeys at autox.team.net>
>> Bcc:
>> Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 16:43:03 -0800
>> Subject: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
>> Rick,
>>
>> Last I heard, the owner was working with BaT to present another listing
>> for this car (or did it sell?). If it's presented truthfully, as having a
>> replacement chassis and possibly carbs and distributor I'd have no issues
>> with it; it is, essentially, an 'M equivalent' with a (likely) reduced
>> price. The commenters did a potential buyer a favor; if s/he knows what
>> s/he got, and is happy with it, that's great.
>>
>> Bob
>>
>>
>> On 12/16/2023 9:31 AM, HealeyRick wrote:
>>
>> Bob,
>>
>> As I prepare to write this month's "Auction Report" for the *Healey
>> Marque *this 100M discussion has been really helpful and interesting. I
>> think your comment " I was surprised Bill let the incorrect carbs and
>> distributor slide " raises a great question of what exactly is the 100M
>> certificate certifying? Bill Meade has written an article on what needs to
>> be presented to be certified.
>> https://www.100mregistry.com/PROTECTING_YOUR_100M_Feb_2013.pdf
>> <https://www.100mregistry.com/PROTECTING_YOUR_100M_Feb_2013.pdf> But
>> it seems to me it mainly focuses on the body parts that it left the factory
>> with. I find it interesting there's no necessity for pictures of the engine
>> number. And even if all the body parts, carbs, and distributor aren't
>> there, Bill says in the article "If some of these items are missing, let
>> the Registry know. It normally does not prevent registration provided
>> enough ID points are present." So my impression, which I'll try to verify
>> with Bill, is the certification is focused on the question whether this is
>> the car that left the factory that matches the BMIHT certificate saying it
>> had a louvered hood and not so much on whether it still has all the
>> original parts an M would have come with.
>> I think one of the benefits of the BaT comments for buyers (and
>> probably not so much for sellers) is pointing out major deficiencies with
>> an offering. Some buyer might have paid way more this car than it would be
>> worth if not for the "savage" comments.
>>
>> Happy Healeydays
>> Rick Neville
>>
>> On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 11:46 AM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I think that's indisputable (I unintentionally neglected to mention that
>>> aspect). That, and the fact the kits were selling made a case for selling
>>> the M (these days, that would take an army of marketing people to figure
>>> out, with lots of 'data' of course, and maybe some AI). Doesn't negate the
>>> strong showing of taking, IIRC, 3 cars off the lot--or was that the
>>> Bonneville cars?--hanging a few fancy bits on it and giving the bespoke
>>> Ferraris, Jags, Astons, Mercedeses etc. a run for their money (the Healeys'
>>> rugged simplicity likely helped). DMH was a brilliant marketer and
>>> salesman; he spotted the 'niche' hole between lower--performance MGs--we're
>>> talking TCs and TDs, not Bs and Cs--and higher-performance but much more
>>> expensive Jaguars and plugged it. History says he drove cross-county in the
>>> US to gauge the market; probably why he made overdrive an option from the
>>> get-go, for the wide-open US highways. I don't know Triumph history that
>>> well, was the TR2 a contemporary of the 100?
>>>
>>> How many times have you been asked what your Healey is worth--usually by
>>> a 'not-a-car-person'--and you've replied 'Whatever someone will pay me for
>>> it' (then, if the person seems genuinely interested I may give a run-down
>>> of the contemporary market; these days 'not so good'). It's the same with
>>> other marques; witness the number of Chevelle SS 'tribute' cars going
>>> across the block at auctions. Genuine Ms can command a 50-100% premium over
>>> comparable 100s; hence the intensity of the interest and critique. Did you
>>> watch the BaT auction? It was pretty savage and enlightening, to me; I was
>>> surprised Bill let the incorrect carbs and distributor slide (maybe he was
>>> tired of doing the registry thing).
>>>
>>> From the late, great Gary Anderson:
>>>
>>>
>>> https://austinhealeyconcoursregistry.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/The-Heritage-of-the-100M-G.-Anderson.pdf
>>>
>>>
>>> On 12/16/2023 6:46 AM, Michael Oritt wrote:
>>>
>>> Some feel that since DMH knew he was going to change over to a new car
>>> (the 100-6) he figured out a clever marketing ploy to get rid of what might
>>> otherwise have become a less-than-desirable inventory of late production
>>> 100's by outfitting some of the cars with the snazzy M upgrade. If so it
>>> was probably never his intention nor in his comprehension to produce what
>>> has ironically become a very special Healey second only to the 100-S in
>>> collectibility.
>>>
>>> Best--Michael Oritt
>>>
>>> On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 1:31 AM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The M was rated at 110HP--more if you got the optional branch
>>>> extractor--as opposed to a stock BN2's 90HP. That's a 22% increase in
>>>> power; I'd call that significant. Also, how do you 'hang' a camshaft and
>>>> pistons on an engine (the mechanics were supposed to pull the engine, but
>>>> if DMH and Geoff weren't around they'd cheat and do the mods in situ)?
>>>>
>>>> I think at least part of the value of an M is that it made an
>>>> appearance at the Healey factory, possibly with DMH and/or Geoff in
>>>> attendance, as opposed to just coming off the Austin assembly line. Also,
>>>> the modifications were, for the most part, the same as made to the cars
>>>> that ran at LeMans in '52 ('53?) and came in 13th (or 14th) overall. When
>>>> customers started asking for the same modifications DMH first sold a kit,
>>>> then the complete car (anyone remember 'Race on Sunday, sell on Monday?').
>>>>
>>>> I'd say the market has spoken, since genuine M cars command a
>>>> significant price premium (hence why of the original, documented 640 cars
>>>> only 3,000 remain).
>>>>
>>>> bs
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 12/15/2023 2:16 PM, Michael Salter wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I'm not an "M" guy really because as someone mentioned there isn't that
>>>> much to hanging the "modification " parts on any 100.
>>>> If the "M" designation involved significant performance modifications,
>>>> say like an "M" series BMW, which could not be easily copied, then I would
>>>> consider them be very special.
>>>> I understand that Mr Meade has now sold his "M" so would not be
>>>> surprised to see the "Registry" fade away.
>>>> Just my opinion.
>>>>
>>>> M
>>>>
>>>> On Fri., Dec. 15, 2023, 1:59 p.m. josef-eckert--- via Healeys, <
>>>> healeys at autox.team.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> What makes a 100M?
>>>>> Very good question and not easy to answer.
>>>>>
>>>>> In my opinion, an Austin-Healey 100M, especially as the price category is significantly higher than the normal 100,
>>>>> is a car that any modification reduces its value. A heavily modified 100M is nothing special. It's a modified 100 and
>>>>> no longer an M. But this is my personal opinion. A new chassis would be such a major modification for me, as would a
>>>>> conversion to disc brakes at the front or a conversion to a Weber carburettors, etc. This would be simply no longer a
>>>>> Genuine 100M. I would then rather buy an original Austin-Healey 100 for the same money. But I have to admit, for me
>>>>> the hype surrounding the 100M is far exaggerated for what the car is. It's a special model with a little more
>>>>> horsepower, but not anything particularly special. Its like an Alpina BMW or a AMG Mercedes.
>>>>>
>>>>> Josef Eckert
>>>>> Germany
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original-Nachricht-----
>>>>>
>>>>> Betreff: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
>>>>>
>>>>> Datum: 2023-12-15T18:07:16+0100
>>>>>
>>>>> Von: "Bob Spidell" <bspidell at comcast.net>
>>>>>
>>>>> An: "HealeyRick" <healeyrik at gmail.com>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Note the Registry will also certify 'Le Mans Conversions,' which may
>>>>> be what Kent's nasty is/was. Some have noted you can build a 'better M'
>>>>> with aftermarket parts (Isky cam, alloy head, SBC, etc.).
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think either Kilmartin or Jules makes a 100 chassis, but I'd
>>>>> be somewhat more sympathetic to that, but not so much hanging an M body and
>>>>> parts on a BN1 (a BN2, *maybe*). The main problem I see is an earnest
>>>>> owner may sell a conversion (aka 'counterfeit') with full disclosure, but
>>>>> an owner or two down the road the 'Tribute' tag has been conveniently
>>>>> forgotten (I'm not all in on 'tribute' anything, be they cars or rock
>>>>> bands).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 12/15/2023 7:17 AM, HealeyRick wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> This is all hypothesis based on speculation so take it with that
>>>>> caveat. Let's say one had a rusty factory 100M that was so bad it needed a
>>>>> new frame. How hard would it be to transfer the 100M body parts over to a
>>>>> solid BN1 chassis along with the oh-so-valuable chassis plate? The 100M
>>>>> Registry seems to focus mostly on the original body parts and cockpit
>>>>> surrounds to certify a car. Even cars with non-original engines have been
>>>>> registered. I'm pretty certain Kent Lacy's Nasty M was on the registry. So
>>>>> is the BaT car still an M? Some pretty valuable race cars have been
>>>>> crashed and fitted with new chassis and still bring big money at auction.
>>>>>
>>>>> To me, what makes an M an M is the motor. If an M no longer has its
>>>>> original motor, or equal replacement, it has lost its character as an M.
>>>>> Otherwise, it's a BN2 with a louvered hood. It's almost like if a Sunbeam
>>>>> Tiger blew its motor and it was replaced with an Alpine motor. Sure, it's
>>>>> got the right serial number on the unibody, but it's not much of a Tiger
>>>>> anymore. The BaT car with what appears to be non-original carbs and
>>>>> distributor caused me concern. Who would remove those from an original M
>>>>> motor? C'mon 100M sellers, pop the valve cover, remove the rockers and put
>>>>> a dial indicator on the pushrods so we can see if there is still a 100M cam
>>>>> in the lump!
>>>>>
>>>>> Happy Healeydays,
>>>>> Rick Neville
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 1:05 PM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Excellent report, thank you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I was one of the commenters on BaT--I joined BaT to comment--but,
>>>>>> since I have a BN2/100M I'm not familiar with BN1 differences and could
>>>>>> only point out obvious differences with my car (which was completely
>>>>>> original as far as I can tell, except for extensive body work). One thing
>>>>>> that was somewhat disturbing to me is that the Registry certified this car,
>>>>>> while noting some major anomalies (the carbs, for instance, looked to be
>>>>>> new and didn't have the hand scribing like my car).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The other thing that interested me is, how do you value this car?
>>>>>> Yes, it's a very nice car, probably a good driver but, IMO, its value
>>>>>> *should* be less than a comparably restored, original BN1 or BN2.
>>>>>> And, what did the previous owner know, or should have known about this car?
>>>>>> How do you present it for sale; as a BN1 with 'M bits?' It would need the
>>>>>> proverbial asterisk alongside the page title.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bob
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 12/14/2023 8:15 AM, S and T Miller wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you were following it recently, you might find my observations
>>>>>> interesting. So I went down to Michael's motor cars to help him determine
>>>>>> if the 100m indeed has a BN1 chassis. Here is what I found.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It has the BN1 inner fenders with the rolled pressings. It has the
>>>>>> BN1 front brake hose frame mount the is less pronounced welded BN1 bracket,
>>>>>> as the later cars have a bolted on bracket. The front shock towers have no
>>>>>> evidence of being replaced and show the factory welds. The gearbox mount
>>>>>> shows non-original/factory welds as if it were replaced to accommodate the
>>>>>> BN2 mount.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What I found most interesting is that where a BN1 has two OD relays
>>>>>> mounted under the dash, it took shining a light it different directions to
>>>>>> just make out the slight evidence of filled holes (4 of then for the two
>>>>>> relays). And I was able to reach inside the vent just below that area with
>>>>>> my fingers and feel the welds and welding wire that was used to fill those
>>>>>> 4 holes. I can tell you someone took great care to try and make those holes
>>>>>> seem as they never existed. Along with that, where a BN2 would have the
>>>>>> single OD relay attached to the firewall with machine screws screwed into
>>>>>> welded captive nuts on the firewall, you can see plain sheet screws were
>>>>>> used to mount it in what would be a BN2 relay position.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I also feel the engine tag is a repo because of the lighter stamping.
>>>>>> Originals tend to have the numbers/ letters stamped with a deeper end
>>>>>> result. I took my repo engine tag along to compare, and they appeared
>>>>>> identical in the stampings. The body/ bath tag and VIN plate appear
>>>>>> original. Now that doesn't mean that the engine isn't the correct M engine,
>>>>>> because there could be many reasons why the engine tag was replaced. Anyone
>>>>>> who drove a stock 100 compared to a 100M can attest to the difference in
>>>>>> power, and Mike stated that it indeed has that M power.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The boot lid shows no evidence of the stay bracket being swapped off
>>>>>> another lid, and if you look closely you can see that the boot shows some
>>>>>> previous age/life. I'd believe it to be original. I could not make out any
>>>>>> evidence of the bonnet number being sliced in from a M bonnet, but I will
>>>>>> say that the underside of the bonnet seemed suspiciously clean and
>>>>>> prestine. I couldn't detect any age like the boot, but that would be for
>>>>>> someone else to decide.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mike had asked me if the cold air box was original, and I simply
>>>>>> don't have that experience to know. I have anyways heard if it looks old,
>>>>>> it's original. It does indeed look to have some age, so?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I feel at some point in this car's life someone went to some effort
>>>>>> to try and conceal that these 100M parts were reinstalled on a BN1 chassis.
>>>>>> Another interesting note is that there was an attempt to fill the holes
>>>>>> where a BN1 chassis plate is fitted on the frame rail. Perhaps the person
>>>>>> didn't realize that the holes continued over to the BN2's, and thought they
>>>>>> were erasing evidence of a BN1 chassis?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> With all that said, Mike is simply trying to represent the car
>>>>>> correctly. The car is a very nice car! Paint is very nice, car is straight,
>>>>>> and gaps look good. Interior is very nice, and looks to be a very good car
>>>>>> all around. I didn't drive the car, but Mike has years of experience under
>>>>>> his belt, so I'd trust his opinions on that. With the quality of the
>>>>>> restoration, it is surprising that the front frame to shroud brackets were
>>>>>> not welded to the frame. Chrome looks good, and I'd think winning some
>>>>>> trophies at a popular vote car would not be an issue.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Millers
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Always drive them, but remember each drive in an antique car is a
>>>>>> test drive."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>>>>> Suggested annual donation $12.75
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
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>>>>>>
>>>>>> Healeys at autox.team.net
>>>>>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Unsubscribe/Manage:
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: <rfbegani at gmail.com>
>> To: <josef-eckert at t-online.de>
>> Cc: <healeys at autox.team.net>
>> Bcc:
>> Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2023 05:06:32 -0500
>> Subject: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
>>
>> Dear Josef:
>>
>>
>>
>> Your comments are the same in the USA especially in Florida where there
>> are large numbers of retired people. My good friend and President of our
>> British Car Club Hermann Schuller formerly of Germany has said that younger
>> people want Japanese or European sports cars. It is the same for those who
>> enjoy boating. Sailors today are 55 to 80 years old. I had to give away
>> my 1967 28-foot sailboat in good condition at our summer home on Lake
>> Michigan as younger boaters want speed and comfort. I still have another
>> younger 28-foot sailboat in Punta Gorda, Florida and will continue to sail
>> in accordance with the agreement with my wife that I will not sail alone.
>>
>>
>>
>> Also, our British Car Club of SW Florida is very large and growing thanks
>> to the efforts of Hermann who revived the club. He is a born salesman and
>> a lover of old sports cars.
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>>
>>
>> Bob Begani
>>
>> 67 BJ8
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Healeys <healeys-bounces at autox.team.net> *On Behalf Of *josef-eckert---
>> via Healeys
>> *Sent:* Saturday, December 16, 2023 1:15 PM
>> *To:* Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net>; Michael Oritt <
>> michael.oritt at gmail.com>
>> *Cc:* healeys at autox.team.net
>> *Subject:* Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
>>
>>
>>
>> As far as I can see here in Europe, the market for Austin-Healeys and
>> comparable vehicles from the 1950s has collapsed extremely. It's like
>> the pre-war vehicles. They can no longer keep up with today's traffic
>> and on motorways they are quite problematic due to the high traffic density
>> and the many trucks that also recklessly swerve to overtake. A 100M and
>> also a 100 are no longer in demand. The clientele that still knows
>> Austin-Healey from her past is almost extinct. Hardly anyone has met
>> Donald Healey here. I'm 66 years old now and didn't know him either. I
>> saw Geoff once before he died, but we knew Margot quite well, having met
>> through friends. But back to the 100M. Hardly anyone here knows the
>> difference between a 100 with a LeMans kit and a 100M. All of these are
>> then usually offered as 100 Le Mans. If a genuine 100M is actually
>> offered, the price is slightly higher than for a comparable 100, but not by
>> a factor of 2. Nobody actually pays that here. There is also non who
>> would pay 100K$ for a 100 or 100M. But as I said, Austin-Healeys are
>> slow sellers and the 3000 BJ8 Ph2 is most in demand because it offers just
>> enough comfort. But younger people don't want these old cars at all. They
>> are looking for a BMW, Porsche or something else from the 70s or 80s that
>> also offers more safety and comfort and that they know from their youth.
>> Lower priced british cars like MG Bs are also out. They are too expensive
>> compared to a Mazda MX-5, or Jaguar XK8 which are definitely the better
>> cars compared.
>>
>> Btw.: The Austin-Healey clubs here have gotten pretty tired. The
>> beautiful events like International healey Weekends that were offered 20
>> years ago are no longer offered in thre former glance for a long time.
>> There are hardly any active people willing to do work for the clubs
>> anymore. Those who do it are also a good 70 years old and what is then done
>> is not really inviting. Many people now stay away from these events which
>> are expensive, but not inviting.
>>
>>
>>
>> Josef Eckert
>>
>> Germany
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: David Masucci <dmasucci at charter.net>
>> To: "josef-eckert at t-online.de" <josef-eckert at t-online.de>
>> Cc: Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net>, Michael Oritt <
>> michael.oritt at gmail.com>, Ahealey help <healeys at autox.team.net>
>> Bcc:
>> Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2023 08:10:57 -0500
>> Subject: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
>> All of this is inevitable, and not a bad thing. Let’s just continue to
>> enjoy what we can while we can. There will be other passions that will
>> entice follow-on generations to enjoy memories from their youth.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>> On Dec 16, 2023, at 1:14 PM, josef-eckert--- via Healeys <
>> healeys at autox.team.net> wrote:
>>
>> As far as I can see here in Europe, the market for Austin-Healeys and
>> comparable vehicles from the 1950s has collapsed extremely. It's like
>> the pre-war vehicles. They can no longer keep up with today's traffic
>> and on motorways they are quite problematic due to the high traffic density
>> and the many trucks that also recklessly swerve to overtake. A 100M and
>> also a 100 are no longer in demand. The clientele that still knows
>> Austin-Healey from her past is almost extinct. Hardly anyone has met
>> Donald Healey here. I'm 66 years old now and didn't know him either. I
>> saw Geoff once before he died, but we knew Margot quite well, having met
>> through friends. But back to the 100M. Hardly anyone here knows the
>> difference between a 100 with a LeMans kit and a 100M. All of these are
>> then usually offered as 100 Le Mans. If a genuine 100M is actually
>> offered, the price is slightly higher than for a comparable 100, but not by
>> a factor of 2. Nobody actually pays that here. There is also non who
>> would pay 100K$ for a 100 or 100M. But as I said, Austin-Healeys are
>> slow sellers and the 3000 BJ8 Ph2 is most in demand because it offers just
>> enough comfort. But younger people don't want these old cars at all. They
>> are looking for a BMW, Porsche or something else from the 70s or 80s that
>> also offers more safety and comfort and that they know from their youth.
>> Lower priced british cars like MG Bs are also out. They are too expensive
>> compared to a Mazda MX-5, or Jaguar XK8 which are definitely the better
>> cars compared.
>> Btw.: The Austin-Healey clubs here have gotten pretty tired. The
>> beautiful events like International healey Weekends that were offered 20
>> years ago are no longer offered in thre former glance for a long time.
>> There are hardly any active people willing to do work for the clubs
>> anymore. Those who do it are also a good 70 years old and what is then done
>> is not really inviting. Many people now stay away from these events which
>> are expensive, but not inviting.
>>
>>
>> Josef Eckert
>> Germany
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original-Nachricht-----
>> Betreff: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
>> Datum: 2023-12-16T17:41:57+0100
>> Von: "Bob Spidell" <bspidell at comcast.net>
>> An: "Michael Oritt" <michael.oritt at gmail.com>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I think that's indisputable (I unintentionally neglected to mention that
>> aspect). That, and the fact the kits were selling made a case for selling
>> the M (these days, that would take an army of marketing people to figure
>> out, with lots of 'data' of course, and maybe some AI). Doesn't negate the
>> strong showing of taking, IIRC, 3 cars off the lot--or was that the
>> Bonneville cars?--hanging a few fancy bits on it and giving the bespoke
>> Ferraris, Jags, Astons, Mercedeses etc. a run for their money (the Healeys'
>> rugged simplicity likely helped). DMH was a brilliant marketer and
>> salesman; he spotted the 'niche' hole between lower--performance MGs--we're
>> talking TCs and TDs, not Bs and Cs--and higher-performance but much more
>> expensive Jaguars and plugged it. History says he drove cross-county in the
>> US to gauge the market; probably why he made overdrive an option from the
>> get-go, for the wide-open US highways. I don't know Triumph history that
>> well, was the TR2 a contemporary of the 100?
>>
>> How many times have you been asked what your Healey is worth--usually by
>> a 'not-a-car-person'--and you've replied 'Whatever someone will pay me for
>> it' (then, if the person seems genuinely interested I may give a run-down
>> of the contemporary market; these days 'not so good'). It's the same with
>> other marques; witness the number of Chevelle SS 'tribute' cars going
>> across the block at auctions. Genuine Ms can command a 50-100% premium over
>> comparable 100s; hence the intensity of the interest and critique. Did you
>> watch the BaT auction? It was pretty savage and enlightening, to me; I was
>> surprised Bill let the incorrect carbs and distributor slide (maybe he was
>> tired of doing the registry thing).
>>
>> From the late, great Gary Anderson:
>>
>>
>> https://austinhealeyconcoursregistry.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/The-Heritage-of-the-100M-G.-Anderson.pdf
>>
>>
>> On 12/16/2023 6:46 AM, Michael Oritt wrote:
>>
>> Some feel that since DMH knew he was going to change over to a new car
>> (the 100-6) he figured out a clever marketing ploy to get rid of what might
>> otherwise have become a less-than-desirable inventory of late production
>> 100's by outfitting some of the cars with the snazzy M upgrade. If so it
>> was probably never his intention nor in his comprehension to produce what
>> has ironically become a very special Healey second only to the 100-S in
>> collectibility.
>>
>> Best--Michael Oritt
>>
>> On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 1:31 AM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>> The M was rated at 110HP--more if you got the optional branch
>>> extractor--as opposed to a stock BN2's 90HP. That's a 22% increase in
>>> power; I'd call that significant. Also, how do you 'hang' a camshaft and
>>> pistons on an engine (the mechanics were supposed to pull the engine, but
>>> if DMH and Geoff weren't around they'd cheat and do the mods in situ)?
>>>
>>> I think at least part of the value of an M is that it made an appearance
>>> at the Healey factory, possibly with DMH and/or Geoff in attendance, as
>>> opposed to just coming off the Austin assembly line. Also, the
>>> modifications were, for the most part, the same as made to the cars that
>>> ran at LeMans in '52 ('53?) and came in 13th (or 14th) overall. When
>>> customers started asking for the same modifications DMH first sold a kit,
>>> then the complete car (anyone remember 'Race on Sunday, sell on Monday?').
>>>
>>> I'd say the market has spoken, since genuine M cars command a
>>> significant price premium (hence why of the original, documented 640 cars
>>> only 3,000 remain).
>>>
>>> bs
>>>
>>>
>>> On 12/15/2023 2:16 PM, Michael Salter wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm not an "M" guy really because as someone mentioned there isn't that
>>> much to hanging the "modification " parts on any 100.
>>> If the "M" designation involved significant performance modifications,
>>> say like an "M" series BMW, which could not be easily copied, then I would
>>> consider them be very special.
>>> I understand that Mr Meade has now sold his "M" so would not be
>>> surprised to see the "Registry" fade away.
>>> Just my opinion.
>>>
>>> M
>>>
>>> On Fri., Dec. 15, 2023, 1:59 p.m. josef-eckert--- via Healeys, <
>>> healeys at autox.team.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> What makes a 100M? Very good question and not easy to answer. In my opinion, an Austin-Healey 100M, especially as the price category is significantly higher than the normal 100, is a car that any modification reduces its value. A heavily modified 100M is nothing special. It's a modified 100 and no longer an M. But this is my personal opinion. A new chassis would be such a major modification for me, as would a conversion to disc brakes at the front or a conversion to a Weber carburettors, etc. This would be simply no longer a Genuine 100M. I would then rather buy an original Austin-Healey 100 for the same money. But I have to admit, for me the hype surrounding the 100M is far exaggerated for what the car is. It's a special model with a little more horsepower, but not anything particularly special. Its like an Alpina BMW or a AMG Mercedes. Josef Eckert Germany
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original-Nachricht-----
>>>> Betreff: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
>>>> Datum: 2023-12-15T18:07:16+0100
>>>> Von: "Bob Spidell" <bspidell at comcast.net>
>>>> An: "HealeyRick" <healeyrik at gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Note the Registry will also certify 'Le Mans Conversions,' which may be
>>>> what Kent's nasty is/was. Some have noted you can build a 'better M' with
>>>> aftermarket parts (Isky cam, alloy head, SBC, etc.).
>>>>
>>>> I don't think either Kilmartin or Jules makes a 100 chassis, but I'd be
>>>> somewhat more sympathetic to that, but not so much hanging an M body and
>>>> parts on a BN1 (a BN2, *maybe*). The main problem I see is an earnest
>>>> owner may sell a conversion (aka 'counterfeit') with full disclosure, but
>>>> an owner or two down the road the 'Tribute' tag has been conveniently
>>>> forgotten (I'm not all in on 'tribute' anything, be they cars or rock
>>>> bands).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 12/15/2023 7:17 AM, HealeyRick wrote:
>>>>
>>>> This is all hypothesis based on speculation so take it with that
>>>> caveat. Let's say one had a rusty factory 100M that was so bad it needed a
>>>> new frame. How hard would it be to transfer the 100M body parts over to a
>>>> solid BN1 chassis along with the oh-so-valuable chassis plate? The 100M
>>>> Registry seems to focus mostly on the original body parts and cockpit
>>>> surrounds to certify a car. Even cars with non-original engines have been
>>>> registered. I'm pretty certain Kent Lacy's Nasty M was on the registry. So
>>>> is the BaT car still an M? Some pretty valuable race cars have been
>>>> crashed and fitted with new chassis and still bring big money at auction.
>>>>
>>>> To me, what makes an M an M is the motor. If an M no longer has its
>>>> original motor, or equal replacement, it has lost its character as an M.
>>>> Otherwise, it's a BN2 with a louvered hood. It's almost like if a Sunbeam
>>>> Tiger blew its motor and it was replaced with an Alpine motor. Sure, it's
>>>> got the right serial number on the unibody, but it's not much of a Tiger
>>>> anymore. The BaT car with what appears to be non-original carbs and
>>>> distributor caused me concern. Who would remove those from an original M
>>>> motor? C'mon 100M sellers, pop the valve cover, remove the rockers and put
>>>> a dial indicator on the pushrods so we can see if there is still a 100M cam
>>>> in the lump!
>>>>
>>>> Happy Healeydays,
>>>> Rick Neville
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 1:05 PM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Excellent report, thank you.
>>>>>
>>>>> I was one of the commenters on BaT--I joined BaT to comment--but,
>>>>> since I have a BN2/100M I'm not familiar with BN1 differences and could
>>>>> only point out obvious differences with my car (which was completely
>>>>> original as far as I can tell, except for extensive body work). One thing
>>>>> that was somewhat disturbing to me is that the Registry certified this car,
>>>>> while noting some major anomalies (the carbs, for instance, looked to be
>>>>> new and didn't have the hand scribing like my car).
>>>>>
>>>>> The other thing that interested me is, how do you value this car? Yes,
>>>>> it's a very nice car, probably a good driver but, IMO, its value
>>>>> *should* be less than a comparably restored, original BN1 or BN2.
>>>>> And, what did the previous owner know, or should have known about this car?
>>>>> How do you present it for sale; as a BN1 with 'M bits?' It would need the
>>>>> proverbial asterisk alongside the page title.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bob
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 12/14/2023 8:15 AM, S and T Miller wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> If you were following it recently, you might find my observations
>>>>> interesting. So I went down to Michael's motor cars to help him determine
>>>>> if the 100m indeed has a BN1 chassis. Here is what I found.
>>>>>
>>>>> It has the BN1 inner fenders with the rolled pressings. It has the BN1
>>>>> front brake hose frame mount the is less pronounced welded BN1 bracket, as
>>>>> the later cars have a bolted on bracket. The front shock towers have no
>>>>> evidence of being replaced and show the factory welds. The gearbox mount
>>>>> shows non-original/factory welds as if it were replaced to accommodate the
>>>>> BN2 mount.
>>>>>
>>>>> What I found most interesting is that where a BN1 has two OD relays
>>>>> mounted under the dash, it took shining a light it different directions to
>>>>> just make out the slight evidence of filled holes (4 of then for the two
>>>>> relays). And I was able to reach inside the vent just below that area with
>>>>> my fingers and feel the welds and welding wire that was used to fill those
>>>>> 4 holes. I can tell you someone took great care to try and make those holes
>>>>> seem as they never existed. Along with that, where a BN2 would have the
>>>>> single OD relay attached to the firewall with machine screws screwed into
>>>>> welded captive nuts on the firewall, you can see plain sheet screws were
>>>>> used to mount it in what would be a BN2 relay position.
>>>>>
>>>>> I also feel the engine tag is a repo because of the lighter stamping.
>>>>> Originals tend to have the numbers/ letters stamped with a deeper end
>>>>> result. I took my repo engine tag along to compare, and they appeared
>>>>> identical in the stampings. The body/ bath tag and VIN plate appear
>>>>> original. Now that doesn't mean that the engine isn't the correct M engine,
>>>>> because there could be many reasons why the engine tag was replaced. Anyone
>>>>> who drove a stock 100 compared to a 100M can attest to the difference in
>>>>> power, and Mike stated that it indeed has that M power.
>>>>>
>>>>> The boot lid shows no evidence of the stay bracket being swapped off
>>>>> another lid, and if you look closely you can see that the boot shows some
>>>>> previous age/life. I'd believe it to be original. I could not make out any
>>>>> evidence of the bonnet number being sliced in from a M bonnet, but I will
>>>>> say that the underside of the bonnet seemed suspiciously clean and
>>>>> prestine. I couldn't detect any age like the boot, but that would be for
>>>>> someone else to decide.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike had asked me if the cold air box was original, and I simply
>>>>> don't have that experience to know. I have anyways heard if it looks old,
>>>>> it's original. It does indeed look to have some age, so?
>>>>>
>>>>> I feel at some point in this car's life someone went to some effort to
>>>>> try and conceal that these 100M parts were reinstalled on a BN1 chassis.
>>>>> Another interesting note is that there was an attempt to fill the holes
>>>>> where a BN1 chassis plate is fitted on the frame rail. Perhaps the person
>>>>> didn't realize that the holes continued over to the BN2's, and thought they
>>>>> were erasing evidence of a BN1 chassis?
>>>>>
>>>>> With all that said, Mike is simply trying to represent the car
>>>>> correctly. The car is a very nice car! Paint is very nice, car is straight,
>>>>> and gaps look good. Interior is very nice, and looks to be a very good car
>>>>> all around. I didn't drive the car, but Mike has years of experience under
>>>>> his belt, so I'd trust his opinions on that. With the quality of the
>>>>> restoration, it is surprising that the front frame to shroud brackets were
>>>>> not welded to the frame. Chrome looks good, and I'd think winning some
>>>>> trophies at a popular vote car would not be an issue.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Millers
>>>>>
>>>>> "Always drive them, but remember each drive in an antique car is a
>>>>> test drive."
>>>>>
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