[Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
Bob Spidell
bspidell at comcast.net
Sat Dec 16 17:43:03 MST 2023
Rick,
Last I heard, the owner was working with BaT to present another listing
for this car (or did it sell?). If it's presented truthfully, as having
a replacement chassis and possibly carbs and distributor I'd have no
issues with it; it is, essentially, an 'M equivalent' with a (likely)
reduced price. The commenters did a potential buyer a favor; if s/he
knows what s/he got, and is happy with it, that's great.
Bob
On 12/16/2023 9:31 AM, HealeyRick wrote:
> Bob,
>
> As I prepare to write this month's "Auction Report" for the
> /Healey Marque /this 100M discussion has been really helpful and
> interesting. I think your comment " I was surprised Bill let the
> incorrect carbs and distributor slide " raises a great question of
> what exactly is the 100M certificate certifying? Bill Meade has
> written an article on what needs to be presented to be certified.
> https://www.100mregistry.com/PROTECTING_YOUR_100M_Feb_2013.pdf
> <https://www.100mregistry.com/PROTECTING_YOUR_100M_Feb_2013.pdf> But
> it seems to me it mainly focuses on the body parts that it left the
> factory with. I find it interesting there's no necessity for pictures
> of the engine number. And even if all the body parts, carbs, and
> distributor aren't there, Bill says in the article "If some of these
> items are missing, let the Registry know. It normally does not prevent
> registration provided enough ID points are present." So my
> impression, which I'll try to verify with Bill, is the certification
> is focused on the question whether this is the car that left the
> factory that matches the BMIHT certificate saying it had a louvered
> hood and not so much on whether it still has all the original parts an
> M would have come with.
> I think one of the benefits of the BaT comments for buyers (and
> probably not so much for sellers) is pointing out major deficiencies
> with an offering. Some buyer might have paid way more this car than it
> would be worth if not for the "savage" comments.
>
> Happy Healeydays
> Rick Neville
>
> On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 11:46 AM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
>
> I think that's indisputable (I unintentionally neglected to
> mention that aspect). That, and the fact the kits were selling
> made a case for selling the M (these days, that would take an army
> of marketing people to figure out, with lots of 'data' of course,
> and maybe some AI). Doesn't negate the strong showing of taking,
> IIRC, 3 cars off the lot--or was that the Bonneville
> cars?--hanging a few fancy bits on it and giving the bespoke
> Ferraris, Jags, Astons, Mercedeses etc. a run for their money (the
> Healeys' rugged simplicity likely helped). DMH was a brilliant
> marketer and salesman; he spotted the 'niche' hole between
> lower--performance MGs--we're talking TCs and TDs, not Bs and
> Cs--and higher-performance but much more expensive Jaguars and
> plugged it. History says he drove cross-county in the US to gauge
> the market; probably why he made overdrive an option from the
> get-go, for the wide-open US highways. I don't know Triumph
> history that well, was the TR2 a contemporary of the 100?
>
> How many times have you been asked what your Healey is
> worth--usually by a 'not-a-car-person'--and you've replied
> 'Whatever someone will pay me for it' (then, if the person seems
> genuinely interested I may give a run-down of the contemporary
> market; these days 'not so good'). It's the same with other
> marques; witness the number of Chevelle SS 'tribute' cars going
> across the block at auctions. Genuine Ms can command a 50-100%
> premium over comparable 100s; hence the intensity of the interest
> and critique. Did you watch the BaT auction? It was pretty savage
> and enlightening, to me; I was surprised Bill let the incorrect
> carbs and distributor slide (maybe he was tired of doing the
> registry thing).
>
> From the late, great Gary Anderson:
>
> https://austinhealeyconcoursregistry.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/The-Heritage-of-the-100M-G.-Anderson.pdf
>
>
> On 12/16/2023 6:46 AM, Michael Oritt wrote:
>> Some feel that since DMH knew he was going to change over to a
>> new car (the 100-6) he figured out a clever marketing ploy to get
>> rid of what might otherwise have become a
>> less-than-desirable inventory of late production 100's by
>> outfitting some of the cars with the snazzy M upgrade. If so it
>> was probably never his intention nor in his comprehension to
>> produce what has ironically become a very special Healey second
>> only to the 100-S in collectibility.
>>
>> Best--Michael Oritt
>>
>> On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 1:31 AM Bob Spidell
>> <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>> The M was rated at 110HP--more if you got the optional branch
>> extractor--as opposed to a stock BN2's 90HP. That's a 22%
>> increase in power; I'd call that significant. Also, how do
>> you 'hang' a camshaft and pistons on an engine (the mechanics
>> were supposed to pull the engine, but if DMH and Geoff
>> weren't around they'd cheat and do the mods in situ)?
>>
>> I think at least part of the value of an M is that it made an
>> appearance at the Healey factory, possibly with DMH and/or
>> Geoff in attendance, as opposed to just coming off the Austin
>> assembly line. Also, the modifications were, for the most
>> part, the same as made to the cars that ran at LeMans in '52
>> ('53?) and came in 13th (or 14th) overall. When customers
>> started asking for the same modifications DMH first sold a
>> kit, then the complete car (anyone remember 'Race on Sunday,
>> sell on Monday?').
>>
>> I'd say the market has spoken, since genuine M cars command a
>> significant price premium (hence why of the original,
>> documented 640 cars only 3,000 remain).
>>
>> bs
>>
>>
>> On 12/15/2023 2:16 PM, Michael Salter wrote:
>>> I'm not an "M" guy really because as someone mentioned there
>>> isn't that much to hanging the "modification " parts on any
>>> 100.
>>> If the "M" designation involved significant performance
>>> modifications, say like an "M" series BMW, which could not
>>> be easily copied, then I would consider them be very special.
>>> I understand that Mr Meade has now sold his "M" so would not
>>> be surprised to see the "Registry" fade away.
>>> Just my opinion.
>>>
>>> M
>>>
>>> On Fri., Dec. 15, 2023, 1:59 p.m. josef-eckert--- via
>>> Healeys, <healeys at autox.team.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> What makes a 100M? Very good question and not easy to
>>> answer. In my opinion, an Austin-Healey 100M, especially
>>> as the price category is significantly higher than the
>>> normal 100, is a car that any modification reduces its
>>> value. A heavily modified 100M is nothing special. It's
>>> a modified 100 and no longer an M. But this is my
>>> personal opinion. A new chassis would be such a major
>>> modification for me, as would a conversion to disc
>>> brakes at the front or a conversion to a Weber
>>> carburettors, etc. This would be simply no longer a
>>> Genuine 100M. I would then rather buy an original
>>> Austin-Healey 100 for the same money. But I have to
>>> admit, for me the hype surrounding the 100M is far
>>> exaggerated for what the car is. It's a special model
>>> with a little more horsepower, but not anything
>>> particularly special. Its like an Alpina BMW or a AMG
>>> Mercedes. Josef Eckert Germany
>>>
>>> -----Original-Nachricht-----
>>>
>>> Betreff: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
>>>
>>> Datum: 2023-12-15T18:07:16+0100
>>>
>>> Von: "Bob Spidell" <bspidell at comcast.net>
>>>
>>> An: "HealeyRick" <healeyrik at gmail.com>
>>>
>>> Note the Registry will also certify 'Le Mans
>>> Conversions,' which may be what Kent's nasty is/was.
>>> Some have noted you can build a 'better M' with
>>> aftermarket parts (Isky cam, alloy head, SBC, etc.).
>>>
>>> I don't think either Kilmartin or Jules makes a 100
>>> chassis, but I'd be somewhat more sympathetic to that,
>>> but not so much hanging an M body and parts on a BN1 (a
>>> BN2, /maybe/). The main problem I see is an earnest
>>> owner may sell a conversion (aka 'counterfeit') with
>>> full disclosure, but an owner or two down the road the
>>> 'Tribute' tag has been conveniently forgotten (I'm not
>>> all in on 'tribute' anything, be they cars or rock bands).
>>>
>>>
>>> On 12/15/2023 7:17 AM, HealeyRick wrote:
>>>
>>> This is all hypothesis based on speculation so take
>>> it with that caveat. Let's say one had a rusty
>>> factory 100M that was so bad it needed a new frame.
>>> How hard would it be to transfer the 100M body parts
>>> over to a solid BN1 chassis along with the
>>> oh-so-valuable chassis plate? The 100M Registry
>>> seems to focus mostly on the original body parts and
>>> cockpit surrounds to certify a car. Even cars with
>>> non-original engines have been registered. I'm
>>> pretty certain Kent Lacy's Nasty M was on the
>>> registry. So is the BaT car still an M? Some pretty
>>> valuable race cars have been crashed and fitted
>>> with new chassis and still bring big money at auction.
>>> To me, what makes an M an M is the motor. If an M
>>> no longer has its original motor, or equal
>>> replacement, it has lost its character as an M.
>>> Otherwise, it's a BN2 with a louvered hood. It's
>>> almost like if a Sunbeam Tiger blew its motor and it
>>> was replaced with an Alpine motor. Sure, it's got
>>> the right serial number on the unibody, but it's not
>>> much of a Tiger anymore. The BaT car with what
>>> appears to be non-original carbs and distributor
>>> caused me concern. Who would remove those from an
>>> original M motor? C'mon 100M sellers, pop the valve
>>> cover, remove the rockers and put a dial indicator
>>> on the pushrods so we can see if there is still a
>>> 100M cam in the lump!
>>> Happy Healeydays,
>>> Rick Neville
>>>
>>> On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 1:05 PM Bob Spidell
>>> <bspidell at comcast.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> Excellent report, thank you.
>>>
>>> I was one of the commenters on BaT--I joined BaT
>>> to comment--but, since I have a BN2/100M I'm not
>>> familiar with BN1 differences and could only
>>> point out obvious differences with my car (which
>>> was completely original as far as I can tell,
>>> except for extensive body work). One thing that
>>> was somewhat disturbing to me is that the
>>> Registry certified this car, while noting some
>>> major anomalies (the carbs, for instance, looked
>>> to be new and didn't have the hand scribing like
>>> my car).
>>>
>>> The other thing that interested me is, how do
>>> you value this car? Yes, it's a very nice car,
>>> probably a good driver but, IMO, its value
>>> /should/ be less than a comparably restored,
>>> original BN1 or BN2. And, what did the previous
>>> owner know, or should have known about this car?
>>> How do you present it for sale; as a BN1 with 'M
>>> bits?' It would need the proverbial asterisk
>>> alongside the page title.
>>>
>>> Bob
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 12/14/2023 8:15 AM, S and T Miller wrote:
>>>
>>> If you were following it recently, you
>>> might find my observations interesting. So I
>>> went down to Michael's motor cars to help
>>> him determine if the 100m indeed has a BN1
>>> chassis. Here is what I found.
>>> It has the BN1 inner fenders with the rolled
>>> pressings. It has the BN1 front brake hose
>>> frame mount the is less pronounced welded
>>> BN1 bracket, as the later cars have a bolted
>>> on bracket. The front shock towers have no
>>> evidence of being replaced and show the
>>> factory welds. The gearbox mount shows
>>> non-original/factory welds as if it were
>>> replaced to accommodate the BN2 mount.
>>> What I found most interesting is that where
>>> a BN1 has two OD relays mounted under the
>>> dash, it took shining a light it different
>>> directions to just make out the slight
>>> evidence of filled holes (4 of then for the
>>> two relays). And I was able to reach inside
>>> the vent just below that area with my
>>> fingers and feel the welds and welding wire
>>> that was used to fill those 4 holes. I can
>>> tell you someone took great care to try and
>>> make those holes seem as they never existed.
>>> Along with that, where a BN2 would have the
>>> single OD relay attached to the firewall
>>> with machine screws screwed into welded
>>> captive nuts on the firewall, you can see
>>> plain sheet screws were used to mount it in
>>> what would be a BN2 relay position.
>>> I also feel the engine tag is a repo because
>>> of the lighter stamping. Originals tend to
>>> have the numbers/ letters stamped with a
>>> deeper end result. I took my repo engine
>>> tag along to compare, and they appeared
>>> identical in the stampings. The body/ bath
>>> tag and VIN plate appear original. Now that
>>> doesn't mean that the engine isn't the
>>> correct M engine, because there could be
>>> many reasons why the engine tag was
>>> replaced. Anyone who drove a stock 100
>>> compared to a 100M can attest to the
>>> difference in power, and Mike stated that it
>>> indeed has that M power.
>>> The boot lid shows no evidence of the stay
>>> bracket being swapped off another lid, and
>>> if you look closely you can see that the
>>> boot shows some previous age/life. I'd
>>> believe it to be original. I could not make
>>> out any evidence of the bonnet number being
>>> sliced in from a M bonnet, but I will say
>>> that the underside of the bonnet seemed
>>> suspiciously clean and prestine. I couldn't
>>> detect any age like the boot, but that would
>>> be for someone else to decide.
>>> Mike had asked me if the cold air box was
>>> original, and I simply don't have that
>>> experience to know. I have anyways heard if
>>> it looks old, it's original. It does indeed
>>> look to have some age, so?
>>> I feel at some point in this car's life
>>> someone went to some effort to try and
>>> conceal that these 100M parts were
>>> reinstalled on a BN1 chassis. Another
>>> interesting note is that there was an
>>> attempt to fill the holes where a BN1
>>> chassis plate is fitted on the frame rail.
>>> Perhaps the person didn't realize that the
>>> holes continued over to the BN2's, and
>>> thought they were erasing evidence of a BN1
>>> chassis?
>>> With all that said, Mike is simply trying to
>>> represent the car correctly. The car is a
>>> very nice car! Paint is very nice, car is
>>> straight, and gaps look good. Interior is
>>> very nice, and looks to be a very good car
>>> all around. I didn't drive the car, but Mike
>>> has years of experience under his belt, so
>>> I'd trust his opinions on that. With the
>>> quality of the restoration, it is surprising
>>> that the front frame to shroud brackets were
>>> not welded to the frame. Chrome looks good,
>>> and I'd think winning some trophies at a
>>> popular vote car would not be an issue.
>>> The Millers
>>>
>>> "Always drive them, but remember each drive
>>> in an antique car is a test drive."
>>>
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>>
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>
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