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Rick,<br>
<br>
Last I heard, the owner was working with BaT to present another
listing for this car (or did it sell?). If it's presented
truthfully, as having a replacement chassis and possibly carbs and
distributor I'd have no issues with it; it is, essentially, an 'M
equivalent' with a (likely) reduced price. The commenters did a
potential buyer a favor; if s/he knows what s/he got, and is happy
with it, that's great.<br>
<br>
Bob<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 12/16/2023 9:31 AM, HealeyRick
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAGfzsZd1qWXCocMmwqwh9uBt=Vzb_UZVKyn4_zoY=g-OKWN4KA@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="ltr">Bob,
<div><br>
</div>
<div> As I prepare to write this month's "Auction Report"
for the <i>Healey Marque </i>this 100M discussion has been
really helpful and interesting. I think your comment " I was
surprised Bill let the incorrect carbs and distributor slide
" raises a great question of what exactly is the 100M
certificate certifying? Bill Meade has written an article on
what needs to be presented to be certified. <a
href="https://www.100mregistry.com/PROTECTING_YOUR_100M_Feb_2013.pdf"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.100mregistry.com/PROTECTING_YOUR_100M_Feb_2013.pdf </a>
But it seems to me it mainly focuses on the body parts that
it left the factory with. I find it interesting there's no
necessity for pictures of the engine number. And even if all
the body parts, carbs, and distributor aren't there, Bill says
in the article "If some of these items are missing, let the
Registry
know. It normally does not prevent registration provided
enough ID points are present." So my impression, which I'll
try to verify with Bill, is the certification is focused on
the question whether this is the car that left the factory
that matches the BMIHT certificate saying it had a louvered
hood and not so much on whether it still has all the original
parts an M would have come with.</div>
<div> I think one of the benefits of the BaT comments for
buyers (and probably not so much for sellers) is pointing out
major deficiencies with an offering. Some buyer might have
paid way more this car than it would be worth if not for the
"savage" comments.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Happy Healeydays</div>
<div>Rick Neville</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at
11:46 AM Bob Spidell <<a href="mailto:bspidell@comcast.net"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">bspidell@comcast.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div> I think that's indisputable (I unintentionally neglected
to mention that aspect). That, and the fact the kits were
selling made a case for selling the M (these days, that
would take an army of marketing people to figure out, with
lots of 'data' of course, and maybe some AI). Doesn't negate
the strong showing of taking, IIRC, 3 cars off the lot--or
was that the Bonneville cars?--hanging a few fancy bits on
it and giving the bespoke Ferraris, Jags, Astons, Mercedeses
etc. a run for their money (the Healeys' rugged simplicity
likely helped). DMH was a brilliant marketer and salesman;
he spotted the 'niche' hole between lower--performance
MGs--we're talking TCs and TDs, not Bs and Cs--and
higher-performance but much more expensive Jaguars and
plugged it. History says he drove cross-county in the US to
gauge the market; probably why he made overdrive an option
from the get-go, for the wide-open US highways. I don't know
Triumph history that well, was the TR2 a contemporary of the
100?<br>
<br>
How many times have you been asked what your Healey is
worth--usually by a 'not-a-car-person'--and you've replied
'Whatever someone will pay me for it' (then, if the person
seems genuinely interested I may give a run-down of the
contemporary market; these days 'not so good'). It's the
same with other marques; witness the number of Chevelle SS
'tribute' cars going across the block at auctions. Genuine
Ms can command a 50-100% premium over comparable 100s; hence
the intensity of the interest and critique. Did you watch
the BaT auction? It was pretty savage and enlightening, to
me; I was surprised Bill let the incorrect carbs and
distributor slide (maybe he was tired of doing the registry
thing). <br>
<br>
From the late, great Gary Anderson:<br>
<br>
<a
href="https://austinhealeyconcoursregistry.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/The-Heritage-of-the-100M-G.-Anderson.pdf"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://austinhealeyconcoursregistry.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/The-Heritage-of-the-100M-G.-Anderson.pdf</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<div>On 12/16/2023 6:46 AM, Michael Oritt wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default" style="color:rgb(51,51,255)">Some
feel that since DMH knew he was going to change over
to a new car (the 100-6) he figured out a clever
marketing ploy to get rid of what might otherwise have
become a less-than-desirable inventory of late
production 100's by outfitting some of the cars with
the snazzy M upgrade. If so it was probably never his
intention nor in his comprehension to produce what has
ironically become a very special Healey second only to
the 100-S in collectibility.</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="color:rgb(51,51,255)"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="color:rgb(51,51,255)">Best--Michael
Oritt</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Dec 16, 2023
at 1:31 AM Bob Spidell <<a
href="mailto:bspidell@comcast.net" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">bspidell@comcast.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div> The M was rated at 110HP--more if you got the
optional branch extractor--as opposed to a stock
BN2's 90HP. That's a 22% increase in power; I'd call
that significant. Also, how do you 'hang' a camshaft
and pistons on an engine (the mechanics were
supposed to pull the engine, but if DMH and Geoff
weren't around they'd cheat and do the mods in
situ)?<br>
<br>
I think at least part of the value of an M is that
it made an appearance at the Healey factory,
possibly with DMH and/or Geoff in attendance, as
opposed to just coming off the Austin assembly line.
Also, the modifications were, for the most part, the
same as made to the cars that ran at LeMans in '52
('53?) and came in 13th (or 14th) overall. When
customers started asking for the same modifications
DMH first sold a kit, then the complete car (anyone
remember 'Race on Sunday, sell on Monday?').<br>
<br>
I'd say the market has spoken, since genuine M cars
command a significant price premium (hence why of
the original, documented 640 cars only 3,000
remain). <br>
<br>
bs<br>
<br>
<br>
<div>On 12/15/2023 2:16 PM, Michael Salter wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="auto">I'm not an "M" guy really because
as someone mentioned there isn't that much to
hanging the "modification " parts on any 100.
<div dir="auto">If the "M" designation involved
significant performance modifications, say
like an "M" series BMW, which could not be
easily copied, then I would consider them be
very special.
<div dir="auto">I understand that Mr Meade has
now sold his "M" so would not be surprised
to see the "Registry" fade away.</div>
<div dir="auto">Just my opinion. </div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">M</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri., Dec.
15, 2023, 1:59 p.m. josef-eckert--- via
Healeys, <<a
href="mailto:healeys@autox.team.net"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">healeys@autox.team.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<pre
id="m_1603492253125454553m_-4413793566936237617m_-8948067483587624533tw-target-text"
dir="ltr" style="text-align:left"><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" lang="en">What makes a 100M?
Very good question and not easy to answer.
In my opinion, an Austin-Healey 100M, especially as the price category is significantly higher than the normal 100,
is a car that any modification reduces its value. A heavily modified 100M is nothing special. It's a modified 100 and
no longer an M. But this is my personal opinion. A new chassis would be such a major modification for me, as would a
conversion to disc brakes at the front or a conversion to a Weber carburettors, etc. This would be simply no longer a
Genuine 100M. I would then rather buy an original Austin-Healey 100 for the same money. But I have to admit, for me
the hype surrounding the 100M is far exaggerated for what the car is. It's a special model with a little more
horsepower, but not anything particularly special. Its like an Alpina BMW or a AMG Mercedes.
Josef Eckert
Germany
</span></pre>
<p style="margin:0px"><span
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:rgb(0,0,0);text-decoration:none"> </span></p>
<p style="margin:0px"><span
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:rgb(0,0,0);text-decoration:none"> </span></p>
<p style="margin:0px"> </p>
<p style="margin:0px"> </p>
<p style="margin:0px">-----Original-Nachricht-----</p>
<p style="margin:0px">Betreff: Re: [Healeys]
Recent 100M on BAT</p>
<p style="margin:0px">Datum:
2023-12-15T18:07:16+0100</p>
<p style="margin:0px">Von: "Bob Spidell"
<<a href="mailto:bspidell@comcast.net"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">bspidell@comcast.net</a>></p>
<p style="margin:0px">An: "HealeyRick" <<a
href="mailto:healeyrik@gmail.com"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">healeyrik@gmail.com</a>></p>
<p style="margin:0px"> </p>
<p style="margin:0px"> </p>
<p style="margin:0px"> </p>
<div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font:12px Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">Note the
Registry will also certify 'Le Mans
Conversions,' which may be what Kent's
nasty is/was. Some have noted you can
build a 'better M' with aftermarket parts
(Isky cam, alloy head, SBC, etc.). <br>
<br>
I don't think either Kilmartin or Jules
makes a 100 chassis, but I'd be somewhat
more sympathetic to that, but not so much
hanging an M body and parts on a BN1 (a
BN2, <em>maybe</em>). The main problem I
see is an earnest owner may sell a
conversion (aka 'counterfeit') with full
disclosure, but an owner or two down the
road the 'Tribute' tag has been
conveniently forgotten (I'm not all in on
'tribute' anything, be they cars or rock
bands).<br>
<br>
<br>
<div>On 12/15/2023 7:17 AM, HealeyRick
wrote:</div>
<blockquote>
<div dir="ltr">This is all hypothesis
based on speculation so take it with
that caveat. Let's say one had a
rusty factory 100M that was so bad it
needed a new frame. How hard would it
be to transfer the 100M body parts
over to a solid BN1 chassis along with
the oh-so-valuable chassis plate? The
100M Registry seems to focus mostly on
the original body parts and cockpit
surrounds to certify a car. Even cars
with non-original engines have been
registered. I'm pretty certain Kent
Lacy's Nasty M was on the registry. So
is the BaT car still an M? Some
pretty valuable race cars have been
crashed and fitted with new chassis
and still bring big money at auction.
<div> </div>
<div>To me, what makes an M an M is
the motor. If an M no longer has
its original motor, or equal
replacement, it has lost its
character as an M. Otherwise, it's a
BN2 with a louvered hood. It's
almost like if a Sunbeam Tiger blew
its motor and it was replaced with
an Alpine motor. Sure, it's got the
right serial number on the unibody,
but it's not much of a Tiger
anymore. The BaT car with what
appears to be non-original carbs and
distributor caused me concern. Who
would remove those from an original
M motor? C'mon 100M sellers, pop the
valve cover, remove the rockers and
put a dial indicator on the pushrods
so we can see if there is still a
100M cam in the lump!</div>
<div>
<div> </div>
<div>Happy Healeydays,</div>
<div>Rick Neville</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr">On
Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 1:05 PM Bob
Spidell <<a
href="mailto:bspidell@comcast.net"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">bspidell@comcast.net</a>>
wrote:</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>Excellent report, thank you. <br>
<br>
I was one of the commenters on
BaT--I joined BaT to comment--but,
since I have a BN2/100M I'm not
familiar with BN1 differences and
could only point out obvious
differences with my car (which was
completely original as far as I
can tell, except for extensive
body work). One thing that was
somewhat disturbing to me is that
the Registry certified this car,
while noting some major anomalies
(the carbs, for instance, looked
to be new and didn't have the hand
scribing like my car). <br>
<br>
The other thing that interested me
is, how do you value this car?
Yes, it's a very nice car,
probably a good driver but, IMO,
its value <em>should</em> be less
than a comparably restored,
original BN1 or BN2. And, what did
the previous owner know, or should
have known about this car? How do
you present it for sale; as a BN1
with 'M bits?' It would need the
proverbial asterisk alongside the
page title.<br>
<br>
Bob<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div>On 12/14/2023 8:15 AM, S and
T Miller wrote:</div>
<blockquote>
<div
style="font-family:inherit;font-size:inherit;color:inherit;background-color:transparent">
<div>If you were following it
recently, you might find my
observations interesting.
So I went down to Michael's
motor cars to help him
determine if the 100m indeed
has a BN1 chassis. Here is
what I found.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>It has the BN1 inner
fenders with the rolled
pressings. It has the BN1
front brake hose frame mount
the is less pronounced
welded BN1 bracket, as the
later cars have a bolted on
bracket. The front shock
towers have no evidence of
being replaced and show the
factory welds. The gearbox
mount shows
non-original/factory welds
as if it were replaced to
accommodate the BN2 mount. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>What I found most
interesting is that where a
BN1 has two OD relays
mounted under the dash, it
took shining a light it
different directions to just
make out the slight evidence
of filled holes (4 of then
for the two relays). And I
was able to reach inside the
vent just below that area
with my fingers and feel the
welds and welding wire that
was used to fill those 4
holes. I can tell you
someone took great care to
try and make those holes
seem as they never existed.
Along with that, where a BN2
would have the single OD
relay attached to the
firewall with machine screws
screwed into welded captive
nuts on the firewall, you
can see plain sheet screws
were used to mount it in
what would be a BN2 relay
position. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>I also feel the engine
tag is a repo because of the
lighter stamping. Originals
tend to have the numbers/
letters stamped with a
deeper end result. I took
my repo engine tag along to
compare, and they appeared
identical in the stampings.
The body/ bath tag and VIN
plate appear original. Now
that doesn't mean that the
engine isn't the correct M
engine, because there could
be many reasons why the
engine tag was replaced.
Anyone who drove a stock 100
compared to a 100M can
attest to the difference in
power, and Mike stated that
it indeed has that M power. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>The boot lid shows no
evidence of the stay bracket
being swapped off another
lid, and if you look closely
you can see that the boot
shows some previous
age/life. I'd believe it to
be original. I could not
make out any evidence of the
bonnet number being sliced
in from a M bonnet, but I
will say that the underside
of the bonnet seemed
suspiciously clean and
prestine. I couldn't detect
any age like the boot, but
that would be for someone
else to decide. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Mike had asked me if the
cold air box was original,
and I simply don't have that
experience to know. I have
anyways heard if it looks
old, it's original. It does
indeed look to have some
age, so?</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I feel at some point in
this car's life someone went
to some effort to try and
conceal that these 100M
parts were reinstalled on a
BN1 chassis. Another
interesting note is that
there was an attempt to fill
the holes where a BN1
chassis plate is fitted on
the frame rail. Perhaps the
person didn't realize that
the holes continued over to
the BN2's, and thought they
were erasing evidence of a
BN1 chassis? </div>
<div> </div>
<div>With all that said, Mike
is simply trying to
represent the car correctly.
The car is a very nice car!
Paint is very nice, car is
straight, and gaps look
good. Interior is very nice,
and looks to be a very good
car all around. I didn't
drive the car, but Mike has
years of experience under
his belt, so I'd trust his
opinions on that. With the
quality of the restoration,
it is surprising that the
front frame to shroud
brackets were not welded to
the frame. Chrome looks
good, and I'd think winning
some trophies at a popular
vote car would not be an
issue. </div>
</div>
<div> </div>
<div>The Millers<br>
<br>
"Always drive them, but
remember each drive in an
antique car is a test drive."</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
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