[Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
josef-eckert at t-online.de
josef-eckert at t-online.de
Sat Dec 16 11:14:59 MST 2023
As far as I can see here in Europe, the market for Austin-Healeys and
comparable vehicles from the 1950s has collapsed extremely. It's like the
pre-war vehicles. They can no longer keep up with today's traffic and on
motorways they are quite problematic due to the high traffic density and
the many trucks that also recklessly swerve to overtake. A 100M and also a
100 are no longer in demand. The clientele that still knows Austin-Healey
from her past is almost extinct. Hardly anyone has met Donald Healey here.
I'm 66 years old now and didn't know him either. I saw Geoff once before he
died, but we knew Margot quite well, having met through friends. But back
to the 100M. Hardly anyone here knows the difference between a 100 with a
LeMans kit and a 100M. All of these are then usually offered as 100 Le
Mans. If a genuine 100M is actually offered, the price is slightly higher
than for a comparable 100, but not by a factor of 2. Nobody actually pays
that here. There is also non who would pay 100K$ for a 100 or 100M. But as
I said, Austin-Healeys are slow sellers and the 3000 BJ8 Ph2 is most in
demand because it offers just enough comfort. But younger people don't want
these old cars at all. They are looking for a BMW, Porsche or something
else from the 70s or 80s that also offers more safety and comfort and that
they know from their youth. Lower priced british cars like MG Bs are also
out. They are too expensive compared to a Mazda MX-5, or Jaguar XK8 which
are definitely the better cars compared.
Btw.: The Austin-Healey clubs here have gotten pretty tired. The beautiful
events like International healey Weekends that were offered 20 years ago
are no longer offered in thre former glance for a long time. There are
hardly any active people willing to do work for the clubs anymore. Those
who do it are also a good 70 years old and what is then done is not really
inviting. Many people now stay away from these events which are expensive,
but not inviting.
Josef Eckert
Germany
-----Original-Nachricht-----
Betreff: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
Datum: 2023-12-16T17:41:57+0100
Von: "Bob Spidell" <bspidell at comcast.net>
An: "Michael Oritt" <michael.oritt at gmail.com>
I think that's indisputable (I unintentionally neglected to mention that
aspect). That, and the fact the kits were selling made a case for selling
the M (these days, that would take an army of marketing people to figure
out, with lots of 'data' of course, and maybe some AI). Doesn't negate the
strong showing of taking, IIRC, 3 cars off the lot--or was that the
Bonneville cars?--hanging a few fancy bits on it and giving the bespoke
Ferraris, Jags, Astons, Mercedeses etc. a run for their money (the Healeys'
rugged simplicity likely helped). DMH was a brilliant marketer and
salesman; he spotted the 'niche' hole between lower--performance MGs--we're
talking TCs and TDs, not Bs and Cs--and higher-performance but much more
expensive Jaguars and plugged it. History says he drove cross-county in the
US to gauge the market; probably why he made overdrive an option from the
get-go, for the wide-open US highways. I don't know Triumph history that
well, was the TR2 a contemporary of the 100?
How many times have you been asked what your Healey is worth--usually by a
'not-a-car-person'--and you've replied 'Whatever someone will pay me for
it' (then, if the person seems genuinely interested I may give a run-down
of the contemporary market; these days 'not so good'). It's the same with
other marques; witness the number of Chevelle SS 'tribute' cars going
across the block at auctions. Genuine Ms can command a 50-100% premium over
comparable 100s; hence the intensity of the interest and critique. Did you
watch the BaT auction? It was pretty savage and enlightening, to me; I was
surprised Bill let the incorrect carbs and distributor slide (maybe he was
tired of doing the registry thing).
>From the late, great Gary Anderson:
<https://austinhealeyconcoursregistry.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/The-Heritage-of-the-100M-G.-Anderson.pdf>
On 12/16/2023 6:46 AM, Michael Oritt wrote:
Some feel that since DMH knew he was going to change over to a new car
(the 100-6) he figured out a clever marketing ploy to get rid of what
might otherwise have become a less-than-desirable inventory of late
production 100's by outfitting some of the cars with the snazzy M
upgrade. If so it was probably never his intention nor in his
comprehension to produce what has ironically become a very special
Healey second only to the 100-S in collectibility.
Best--Michael Oritt
On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 1:31 AM Bob Spidell <bspidell at comcast.net
<mailto:bspidell at comcast.net> > wrote:
The M was rated at 110HP--more if you got the optional branch
extractor--as opposed to a stock BN2's 90HP. That's a 22% increase in
power; I'd call that significant. Also, how do you 'hang' a camshaft
and pistons on an engine (the mechanics were supposed to pull the
engine, but if DMH and Geoff weren't around they'd cheat and do the
mods in situ)?
I think at least part of the value of an M is that it made an
appearance at the Healey factory, possibly with DMH and/or Geoff in
attendance, as opposed to just coming off the Austin assembly line.
Also, the modifications were, for the most part, the same as made to
the cars that ran at LeMans in '52 ('53?) and came in 13th (or 14th)
overall. When customers started asking for the same modifications DMH
first sold a kit, then the complete car (anyone remember 'Race on
Sunday, sell on Monday?').
I'd say the market has spoken, since genuine M cars command a
significant price premium (hence why of the original, documented 640
cars only 3,000 remain).
bs
On 12/15/2023 2:16 PM, Michael Salter wrote:
I'm not an "M" guy really because as someone mentioned there
isn't that much to hanging the "modification " parts on any 100.
If the "M" designation involved significant performance
modifications, say like an "M" series BMW, which could not be
easily copied, then I would consider them be very special.
I understand that Mr Meade has now sold his "M" so would not be
surprised to see the "Registry" fade away.
Just my opinion.
M
On Fri., Dec. 15, 2023, 1:59 p.m. josef-eckert--- via Healeys, <
healeys at autox.team.net <mailto:healeys at autox.team.net> > wrote:
What makes a 100M? Very good question and not easy to answer. In my opinion, an Austin-Healey 100M, especially as the price category is significantly higher than the normal 100, is a car that any modification reduces its value. A heavily modified 100M is nothing special. It's a modified 100 and no longer an M. But this is my personal opinion. A new chassis would be such a major modification for me, as would a conversion to disc brakes at the front or a conversion to a Weber carburettors, etc. This would be simply no longer a Genuine 100M. I would then rather buy an original Austin-Healey 100 for the same money. But I have to admit, for me the hype surrounding the 100M is far exaggerated for what the car is. It's a special model with a little more horsepower, but not anything particularly special. Its like an Alpina BMW or a AMG Mercedes. Josef Eckert Germany
-----Original-Nachricht-----
Betreff: Re: [Healeys] Recent 100M on BAT
Datum: 2023-12-15T18:07:16+0100
Von: "Bob Spidell" <bspidell at comcast.net
<mailto:bspidell at comcast.net> >
An: "HealeyRick" <healeyrik at gmail.com
<mailto:healeyrik at gmail.com> >
Note the Registry will also certify 'Le Mans Conversions,'
which may be what Kent's nasty is/was. Some have noted you can
build a 'better M' with aftermarket parts (Isky cam, alloy
head, SBC, etc.).
I don't think either Kilmartin or Jules makes a 100 chassis,
but I'd be somewhat more sympathetic to that, but not so much
hanging an M body and parts on a BN1 (a BN2, maybe). The main
problem I see is an earnest owner may sell a conversion (aka
'counterfeit') with full disclosure, but an owner or two down
the road the 'Tribute' tag has been conveniently forgotten (I'm
not all in on 'tribute' anything, be they cars or rock bands).
On 12/15/2023 7:17 AM, HealeyRick wrote:
This is all hypothesis based on speculation so take it with
that caveat. Let's say one had a rusty factory 100M that
was so bad it needed a new frame. How hard would it be to
transfer the 100M body parts over to a solid BN1 chassis
along with the oh-so-valuable chassis plate? The 100M
Registry seems to focus mostly on the original body parts
and cockpit surrounds to certify a car. Even cars with
non-original engines have been registered. I'm pretty
certain Kent Lacy's Nasty M was on the registry. So is the
BaT car still an M? Some pretty valuable race cars have
been crashed and fitted with new chassis and still bring
big money at auction.
To me, what makes an M an M is the motor. If an M no
longer has its original motor, or equal replacement, it has
lost its character as an M. Otherwise, it's a BN2 with a
louvered hood. It's almost like if a Sunbeam Tiger blew its
motor and it was replaced with an Alpine motor. Sure, it's
got the right serial number on the unibody, but it's not
much of a Tiger anymore. The BaT car with what appears to
be non-original carbs and distributor caused me concern.
Who would remove those from an original M motor? C'mon 100M
sellers, pop the valve cover, remove the rockers and put a
dial indicator on the pushrods so we can see if there is
still a 100M cam in the lump!
Happy Healeydays,
Rick Neville
On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 1:05 PM Bob Spidell <
bspidell at comcast.net <mailto:bspidell at comcast.net> > wrote:
Excellent report, thank you.
I was one of the commenters on BaT--I joined BaT to
comment--but, since I have a BN2/100M I'm not familiar
with BN1 differences and could only point out obvious
differences with my car (which was completely original as
far as I can tell, except for extensive body work). One
thing that was somewhat disturbing to me is that the
Registry certified this car, while noting some major
anomalies (the carbs, for instance, looked to be new and
didn't have the hand scribing like my car).
The other thing that interested me is, how do you value
this car? Yes, it's a very nice car, probably a good
driver but, IMO, its value should be less than a
comparably restored, original BN1 or BN2. And, what did
the previous owner know, or should have known about this
car? How do you present it for sale; as a BN1 with 'M
bits?' It would need the proverbial asterisk alongside
the page title.
Bob
On 12/14/2023 8:15 AM, S and T Miller wrote:
If you were following it recently, you might find my
observations interesting. So I went down to
Michael's motor cars to help him determine if the
100m indeed has a BN1 chassis. Here is what I found.
It has the BN1 inner fenders with the rolled
pressings. It has the BN1 front brake hose frame
mount the is less pronounced welded BN1 bracket, as
the later cars have a bolted on bracket. The front
shock towers have no evidence of being replaced and
show the factory welds. The gearbox mount shows
non-original/factory welds as if it were replaced to
accommodate the BN2 mount.
What I found most interesting is that where a BN1 has
two OD relays mounted under the dash, it took shining
a light it different directions to just make out the
slight evidence of filled holes (4 of then for the
two relays). And I was able to reach inside the vent
just below that area with my fingers and feel the
welds and welding wire that was used to fill those 4
holes. I can tell you someone took great care to try
and make those holes seem as they never existed.
Along with that, where a BN2 would have the single OD
relay attached to the firewall with machine screws
screwed into welded captive nuts on the firewall,
you can see plain sheet screws were used to mount it
in what would be a BN2 relay position.
I also feel the engine tag is a repo because of the
lighter stamping. Originals tend to have the numbers/
letters stamped with a deeper end result. I took my
repo engine tag along to compare, and they appeared
identical in the stampings. The body/ bath tag and
VIN plate appear original. Now that doesn't mean that
the engine isn't the correct M engine, because there
could be many reasons why the engine tag was
replaced. Anyone who drove a stock 100 compared to a
100M can attest to the difference in power, and Mike
stated that it indeed has that M power.
The boot lid shows no evidence of the stay bracket
being swapped off another lid, and if you look
closely you can see that the boot shows some previous
age/life. I'd believe it to be original. I could not
make out any evidence of the bonnet number being
sliced in from a M bonnet, but I will say that the
underside of the bonnet seemed suspiciously clean and
prestine. I couldn't detect any age like the boot,
but that would be for someone else to decide.
Mike had asked me if the cold air box was original,
and I simply don't have that experience to know. I
have anyways heard if it looks old, it's original.
It does indeed look to have some age, so?
I feel at some point in this car's life someone went
to some effort to try and conceal that these 100M
parts were reinstalled on a BN1 chassis. Another
interesting note is that there was an attempt to fill
the holes where a BN1 chassis plate is fitted on the
frame rail. Perhaps the person didn't realize that
the holes continued over to the BN2's, and thought
they were erasing evidence of a BN1 chassis?
With all that said, Mike is simply trying to
represent the car correctly. The car is a very nice
car! Paint is very nice, car is straight, and gaps
look good. Interior is very nice, and looks to be a
very good car all around. I didn't drive the car, but
Mike has years of experience under his belt, so I'd
trust his opinions on that. With the quality of the
restoration, it is surprising that the front frame
to shroud brackets were not welded to the frame.
Chrome looks good, and I'd think winning some
trophies at a popular vote car would not be an issue.
The Millers
"Always drive them, but remember each drive in an
antique car is a test drive."
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