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Re: Ignition Advance!

To: <triumphs@autox.team.net>
Subject: Re: Ignition Advance!
From: "Jim Muller" <jimmuller@pop.mail.rcn.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 23:22:38 -0400
On 27 Jun 2002 at 19:18, Graham McMicken wrote:

> It seems as though my advance is not working.

One has to ask, how do you know? :-)

> The engine can Idle, and slowly start to rev, if I am manually
> turning the distributor.

That's because more advance generally gives more power, up to point 
where the timing is too early.  This behavior is entirely normal.  It 
also means that setting idle speed and idle timing is an iterative 
process.  You might consider setting timing statically first, i.e. 
with the engine off.

> Now, I need to know how to fix this, I have a TR6 with a Lucas #41219D
> Distributor. I was wondering if there is a way to check the advance?

The weights work like this.  When centrifugal force throws them 
outward, they move the cams and the rotor more forward (i.e. in the 
same direction that the rotor normally spins, which is 
counterclockwise, if I remember).  The springs pull the weights back 
in when the spinning slows down or stops.

Systems often have two slightly different springs, and they won't 
necessarily become active at the same time, meaning that one may seem 
to have some free play.  This is also normal.  The idea is that you 
get two different behaviors, a large advance vs. rpm increase at 
lower rpm's, then less advance increase as rpm's go higher.

If you grab the rotor (with the engine stopped! :-) and try to rotate 
it in its normal spinning direction, you should be able to turn it 
easily enough to see it move, perhaps 5 to 10 degrees depending on 
the spec'ed total advance.  You should also be able feel the spring 
pressure working against you.  If you then release it, it should 
return back to its starting position.  (There may be a small bit of 
play in the at-rest position before the springs become active.)

In most cases this will work perfectly, more or less.  There are two 
possible failure modes.  The mechanism could have siezed, meaning 
that you can't turn it and you get no centrifugal advance when it is 
running.  (This happened to me with a Chevy 305 once.)  Or one or 
both spring could have weakened or broken so that whenever the engine 
is running the mechanism advances to its fullest.  In either case you 
should be able to observe it with this simple test.

The toughest case is one of weak springs.  You usually can't tell by 
feel whether a spring is as stiff as it ought to be.  But it also 
isn't a fatal problem.  If a spring is too weak, you will get a bit 
too more advance than you are supposed to as rpm's climb.  You may 
notice this as pinging or similar sign at higher rpm's even though 
you set the timing to spec at idle.  You can correct this by moving 
the timing backwards a bit.  In the worst case, you'll have good 
timing at some rpm's but less than ideal timing at others.  Given 
that timing is a mushy compromise anyway, especially at higher rpm's, 
this isn't a so bad.

If you really suspect the springs or any part of the centrifugal 
advance mechansim, you can use a timing light and simply observe the 
timing at different rpm's.  You'll need some way to rev the engine to 
various higher rpm's.  A spouse or friend sitting in the driver's 
seat and watching the tach while reving the accelerator with a steady 
foot is one way.  You then observe the timing with your timing light 
while the engine is roaring in your face.  Check it at, say, 1000, 
2000, 3000, and 4000 rpm's.  You can compare this to various 
published curves.

Most likely you will have no problem.  Setting the timing will then 
be your next task.  There are several ways to start.  I like to start 
with the static setting.  Also with your idle advance (which should 
actually be a retard) disconnected (but plugged to 
prevent extra air from entering the carb) and the idle under 1000, 
the timing should 
be similar to the static timing.  So another technique is to pull and 
plug the retard line and then use the static timing (then reconnect 
the retard line and set your idle speed).  Or if you trust that the 
vacuum unit works, just set it to the spec'ed idle timing.  When 
you're done, rev it a bit and watch the timing climb with rpm.

Hope this helps.
-- 
Jim Muller
jimmuller@pop.rcn.com
'80 Spitfire, '70 GT6+

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