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Re: Brake Bleeding

To: <spitfires@autox.team.net>
Subject: Re: Brake Bleeding
From: "Nolan Penney" <npenney@mde.state.md.us>
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 10:53:17 -0400
You make it  very tempting to not say a word and watch the sort of replies 
you'll get to your question. :-)

You learn some things working on motorcycles, especially since their front 
brake line runs straight down along the fork tubes, and the clutch line runs 
nearly straight down to the engine.

It's not that air rises just in closed hydraulic systems, it's that air rises 
in any fluid.  From an aquarium bubbler to the fizz in soda.  Air simply rises 
in liquids.  

Now, if you can mechanically shove an air bubble down faster then it floats up, 
you can purge the line this way.  This is how a garden hose works the air out.  
Takes a heck of a lot of fluid, moving fast, for quite a while.  Especially if 
you were to compare brake bleeding to a garden hose.  Look at how long a garden 
hose spits air before it extablishes a steady fluid stream.  

So yes, it is possible to pressure bleed brakes this way, opening the bleed 
nipples.  It's going to take a lot of fluid, moving fast and steady, but it can 
be done.  Accidently empty the master cylinder doing this, and you get to start 
all over again.

Far easier is to crack the lines.  

Let me use the motorcycle example, because it's simpler to visualize.  You've 
got a master cylinder up high on the handle bars, the caliper down low at the 
wheel, and a line in between them.  We're replacing the line.  So you install 
the new line.  Air in the line, fluid in the caliper and the master cylinder 
(if you didn't accidently drain the master cylinder).  

Leave the line connection at the caliper tight, but crack it at the master 
cylinder.  Depress the master cylinder, and you will hear some air escaping 
from the losened fitting as the master cylinder squirts fluid into the line.  
When you stop hearing air coming out of the cracked fitting, tighten it and 
slowly release the master cylinder.  You slowly release the master cylinder to 
encourage it to suck fluid from the reservour, and not air from the line.  Keep 
on repeating.  Eventually you will start getting fluid coming out of the 
cracked joint.  It will snap crackle and pop as air bubbles come out with it.  
Finally, you will get nothing but fluid.  At that point the line is bled.  

What is happening is that as you depress the master cylinder you move fluid 
into the line. The fluid dribbles down the inside of the line to the bottom, 
displacing the air upwards.  Ie, you are filling the line from the bottom up.  
You crack the fitting to allow the air to escape as the line fills up with 
fluid.  Repeat, repeat, repeat.  Eventually the line is nearly filled up, and 
you start getting the froth of both brake fluid and air coming out of the 
cracked fitting.  Finally, you get nothing but brake fluid.

Some folks prefer to have the line tight, depress the master cylinder, and then 
crack the fitting so they can more easily hear the air being expelled (tends to 
make a pop sound this way).  I'm one of them.

At this point, with the line thusly bled, you'll probably still have a somewhat 
soft pedal.  The reason is perfectly demonstrated with a glass of soda.  There 
are little bubbles of fizz stuck to the side of the drinking glass.  Same 
problem occurrs in brake hydraulics.  There will be air bubbles mechanically 
stuck to the sides of the lines, the master cylinder, and the caliper or wheel 
cylinder.  These bubbles do tend to get mechanically worked down the line to 
the caliper by you activating the brakes when driving.  If there are enough of 
these air bublbles, they may get worked together until they form a large enough 
bubble that it breaks free from the side of the line (or master cylinder or 
caliper) and rises up through the fluid to the highest point.  If it's in a 
line, and that high point is just a bend in the line, it's tough to work it 
out.  If it rises to a fitting, cracking the fitting will allow it to be 
expelled.  In the caliper, it will rise to the bleed nipple.  

This is why you go back a week later and rebleed the brakes, you will find a 
little air in there.  Even though you completely bled them when you last worked 
on them.  The little air bubbles stuck on the side of things have been worked 
down to the caliper.

Those little air bubbles are part of the reason you don't want to be moving the 
master cylinder piston fast when first bleeding.  It creates froth, which is 
nothing but little air bubbles.  Makes it darn hard to get a firm pedal.  But 
you do want to work the piston fast at the end, to help jar those little 
bubbles lose.

You also may want to examine the routing of your lines.  If you've got a brake 
line that has high spots that are not joints, that line is nearly impossible to 
bleed.  Bend it, move it, splice it, but get it so that the fluid rising would 
rise to a joint that can be bled.

And that was probably a lot more reading then you wanted to do. :-)

>>> <frandrum@voicenet.com> 06/13 9:59 AM >>>
Hi Listers,

I recently read a Nolan Penney statement that air rises in a closed hydraulic 
system
making it difficult to bleed the system.

Since I am in the process of replacing my OEM 72 Spit lines with SS brakelines 
should I
anticipate difficulty in bleeding the system?  Will a power bleeder solve the 
problem?

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