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Thank you for that vote of confidence. I was one of the people who used to r=
esearch owner provided data to issue those certificates and although I never=
signed the buyer copy, the three of us who did that work, never authorised a=
ny certificate if there was even the slightest doubt about authenticity of o=
wner provided data, or the data could not be triangulated. However, I left B=
MIHT some twenty years ago so have no idea (or interest now) in what may hav=
e happened in later years. I still incline to the view that the early TR5 be=
ing offered for sale is either a =E2=80=9Cringer=E2=80=9D or the seller is m=
aking a claim that cannot be substantiated.
Jonmac
Vote for Guy Fawkes! The only man who entered Parliament with honest intenti=
ons.
> On 15 Mar 2021, at 17:44, ptegler@verizon.net wrote:
>=20
> I have little to no faith in Heritgage Certs.... had an aquiantance reciev=
e a cert with invalid info.
> As a test he submitted a flat out bogus number an they gave him a cert for=
it!
> rubbish.
> Now perhaps they had/have vaild records at one time, or for a particular s=
eries of vehicles...but twice now on two different lineages of cars, the inf=
o printed on the cert was just crap thrown on paper for the $$
>=20
> ptegler
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Macartney <John.Macartney@Ukpips.org.uk>
> To: Greg Lemon <grglmn@gmail.com>
> Cc: Triumphs <triumphs@autox.team.net>
> Sent: Mon, Mar 15, 2021 1:33 pm
> Subject: Re: [TR] Earls Court TR5 (CP20LO) now in USA?
>=20
> I=E2=80=99ve just had a look at the Heritage Certificate for the above car=
. =46rom the info on the certificate, it=E2=80=99s clear it was built for a n=
amed customer in Denmark and supplied under Standard Triumphs Personal Expor=
t Scheme which I worked within for several years. Cars built for display at a=
ny international motor show were identified very clearly on the build record=
and sales invoice as =E2=80=98motor show car=E2=80=99 and this would have b=
een picked up by BMIHT staff when interrogating the microfilmed records. It=E2=
=80=99s also worth mentioning the company would never have used a customer c=
ar for exhibition display at any show such as those which were as prestigiou=
s as London, Paris, Frankfurt, Geneva or New York. A show car? Not in my boo=
k, though the person whose name appears on the BMIHT document might have bee=
n in England FOR the show but his car on the main or Liverpool stands AT the=
show? No way - unless someone can come up with documentation to prove me wr=
ong. I wouldn=E2=80=99t touch it with that claimed or alleged history but no=
doubt someone with more money than sense will swallow the bait and pay way o=
ver the odds for a TR5 that could well be a clone. Too often in life, things=
are not always what they seem and in my view this car fits that category.
>=20
> Jonmac=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Vote for Guy Fawkes! The only man who entered Parliament with honest inten=
tions.
>=20
>> On 8 Mar 2021, at 22:06, John Macartney <John.Macartney@ukpips.org.uk> wr=
ote:
>>=20
>=20
> What many people fail to realise is that motor show cars are very differen=
t in many ways to the normal production version. For a start, the paint fini=
sh received detailed attention and were often resprayed several times to giv=
e the paint a =E2=80=98deeper=E2=80=99 appearance. Engine blocks were a shin=
y black, as were hoses. Body and door shut lines underwent considerable work=
and door shuts themselves were silky smooth in operation and quiet to opera=
te. This was always difficult to achieve on the Herald, GT6 and Spitfire as c=
losing most doors on those models mostly sounded like putting the lid on an e=
mpty trash can. Every night after show closure, the carpets, seats and door c=
ards in all cars were exchanged for new ones and any faults or problems repo=
rted to the Stand Manager during the day were rectified. Knobs, switches, le=
nses that had been stolen or damaged through clumsy removal were also replac=
ed. Leaking or non functional hydraulics were replaced as well and there=E2=80=
=99s a moral here. NEVER buy a car that has done a stint as a display vehicl=
e at a ten day motor show. It will have gone through hell in that time and E=
ngineering always studied reports of how the cars had held up during the sho=
w. Theft, attempted or actual was by no means unknown and one day a man wear=
ing a pair of white overalls was actually caught trying to remove a Herald d=
ifferential!!! It happened on a Saturday when you could hardly move on the s=
tand because of the crowds. Car =E2=80=98ride heights=E2=80=99 were often ra=
ised a little to allow for the daily punishment of people of various weights=
collapsing into cars on a crowded stand. This did little to give seats a ge=
ntle life! Mostly, this was achieved by temporarily fitting all cars with he=
avy duty tropical suspension for the show duration. Doing this meant there w=
as nothing like the amount of =E2=80=9Cgive=E2=80=9D found in a car that was=
conventionally sprung.
>=20
> Was the motor show experience enjoyable? If you like standing on your feet=
from 09.00 to 22.00 without somewhere to sit down, for ten days solid in an=
unhealthy atmosphere that gave everyone flu and talking to people who mostl=
y bored you witless and were often less than polite, eating the same outside=
catered lunch and no chance of a quick beer, I suppose it might have been. T=
he truth was, it wasn=E2=80=99t. We all had to wear dark, tailored three pie=
ce suits (bought at our cost), starched cotton shirts with turned back cuffs=
and a detachable stiff shirt collar and sober tie. Shoes had to be polished=
like a guardsmans boots, clean finger nails, immaculately clean and parted h=
air and heaven help you after a day attired like that if the Stand Manager d=
etected even a tiny whiff of halitosis or sweat. Yes, I will admit we, Stand=
ard Triumph=E2=80=99s public face, looked good and perhaps we had a little v=
irtuous pride in ourselves - but to this day, I=E2=80=99ve yet to meet any c=
ar company employee or salesman who knew as much about his/her product AND t=
he same level of detail of every other make and model of car that competed w=
ith us. To this day and well over fifty years later, I=E2=80=99m still amaze=
d how much I can still recall.
>=20
> Jonmac
>=20
> Vote for Guy Fawkes! The only man who entered Parliament with honest inten=
tions.
>=20
>> On 8 Mar 2021, at 19:07, Greg Lemon <grglmn@gmail.com> wrote:
>>=20
>> I don't believe the suspension was raised. Might appear taller as TR5 ti=
res were skinnier 165, vs. 250 on wider 185/70, or just new springs riding a=
little high.
>>=20
>> Greg Lemon
>> TR250
>>=20
>> On Mon, Mar 8, 2021, 12:29 PM John Linney <john@linneyweb.com> wrote:
>> Lovely car. Did they raise the ride height from the TR4 / 4A? It looks a l=
ittle high.
>>=20
>>> On Mar 8, 2021, at 9:27 AM, Don Hiscock <don.hiscock@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> Friends in NL have reported that a superbly-restored TR5, the original L=
HD car from the 1967 Earls Court Motor Show premiere, has been sold to the U=
SA and is now in the midwest.
>>>=20
>>> Anybody know the car? It's said to be a pretty special TR, and I'd prob=
ably agree. My first car in life was a TR250, unrestorable given my budget,=
skills, and marque support at the time. But today -- I wish I still had it=
!
>>>=20
>>> Here=E2=80=99s the sales ad:
>>> https://www.jbclassiccars.com/?portfolio=3Dtriumph-tr5
>>>=20
>>> Note the comments about the car's original Swiss-specifications and the s=
tuff around engines. Jonmac, this makes us smile to think about your effort=
s in this area back in the day.
>>> ** triumphs@autox.team.net **
>>>=20
>>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs http://www.team.net/arc=
hive
>>>=20
>>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/john@=
linneyweb.com
>>=20
>> ** triumphs@autox.team.net **
>>=20
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs http://www.team.net/arch=
ive
>>=20
>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/grglmn=
@gmail.com
>> ** triumphs@autox.team.net **
>>=20
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs http://www.team.net/arch=
ive
>>=20
>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/john.m=
acartney@ukpips.org.uk
>=20
> ** triumphs@autox.team.net **
>=20
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs http://www.team.net/archiv=
e
>=20
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/ptegler=
@verizon.net
--Apple-Mail-577E01EF-8A46-4E23-A200-F701F6E1DA22
charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto">Thank you for that vote of confidence. I wa=
s one of the people who used to research owner provided data to issue those c=
ertificates and although I never signed the buyer copy, the three of us who d=
id that work, never authorised any certificate if there was even the slighte=
st doubt about authenticity of owner provided data, or the data could not be=
triangulated. However, I left BMIHT some twenty years ago so have no idea (=
or interest now) in what may have happened in later years. I still incline t=
o the view that the early TR5 being offered for sale is either a =E2=80=9Cri=
nger=E2=80=9D or the seller is making a claim that cannot be substantiated.<=
div><br></div><div>Jonmac<br><br><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature" dir=3D"ltr">=
Vote for Guy Fawkes! The only man who entered Parliament with honest intenti=
ons.</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br>On 15 Mar 2021, at 17:44, <a href=3D"mailto:p=
tegler@verizon.net">ptegler@verizon.net</a> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote t=
ype=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">
<div style=3D"color:black;font: 10pt arial;">I have little to no faith in He=
ritgage Certs.... had an aquiantance recieve a cert with invalid info.<br>
As a test he submitted a flat out bogus number an they gave him a cert for i=
t!
<div>rubbish.</div>
<div>Now perhaps they had/have vaild records at one time, or for a particula=
r series of vehicles...but twice now on two different lineages of cars, the i=
nfo printed on the cert was just crap thrown on paper for the $$</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>ptegler<br>
<br>
<br>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black"><font s=
ize=3D"2">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: John Macartney <<a href=3D"mailto:John.Macartney@Ukpips.org.uk";>Joh=
n.Macartney@Ukpips.org.uk</a>><br>
To: Greg Lemon <<a href=3D"mailto:grglmn@gmail.com";>grglmn@gmail.com</a>&=
gt;<br>
Cc: Triumphs <<a href=3D"mailto:triumphs@autox.team.net";>triumphs@autox.t=
eam.net</a>><br>
Sent: Mon, Mar 15, 2021 1:33 pm<br>
Subject: Re: [TR] Earls Court TR5 (CP20LO) now in USA?<br>
<br>
<div id=3D"yiv5493107758">
<div>I=E2=80=99ve just had a look at the Heritage Certificate for the above c=
ar. =46rom the info on the certificate, it=E2=80=99s clear it was built for a=
named customer in Denmark and supplied under Standard Triumphs Personal Exp=
ort Scheme which I worked within for several years. Cars built for display a=
t any international motor show were identified very clearly on the build rec=
ord and sales invoice as =E2=80=98motor show car=E2=80=99 and this would hav=
e been picked up by BMIHT staff when interrogating the microfilmed records. I=
t=E2=80=99s also worth mentioning the company would never have used a custom=
er car for exhibition display at any show such as those which were as presti=
gious as London, Paris, Frankfurt, Geneva or New York. A show car? Not in my=
book, though the person whose name appears on the BMIHT document might have=
been in England FOR the show but his car on the main or Liverpool stands AT=
the show? No way - unless someone can come up with documentation to prove m=
e wrong. I wouldn=E2=80=99t touch it with that claimed or alleged history bu=
t no doubt someone with more money than sense will swallow the bait and pay w=
ay over the odds for a TR5 that could well be a clone. Too often in life, th=
ings are not always what they seem and in my view this car fits that categor=
y.
<div><br clear=3D"none"></div>
<div>Jonmac
<div><br clear=3D"none"></div>
<div><br clear=3D"none"></div>
<div><br clear=3D"none">
<div dir=3D"ltr" id=3D"yiv5493107758AppleMailSignature">Vote for Guy Fawkes!=
The only man who entered Parliament with honest intentions.</div>
<div class=3D"yiv5493107758yqt8139465760" id=3D"yiv5493107758yqt21841">
<div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none">On 8 Mar 2021, at 22:06, John Macartney &=
lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:=
John.Macartney@ukpips.org.uk" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:John.Macartne=
y@ukpips.org.uk">John.Macartney@ukpips.org.uk</a>> wrote:<br clear=3D"non=
e"><br clear=3D"none"></div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div dir=3D"ltr"></div>
</blockquote></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"yiv5493107758yqt8139465760" id=3D"yiv5493107758yqt36074">
<div>What many people fail to realise is that motor show cars are very diffe=
rent in many ways to the normal production version. For a start, the paint f=
inish received detailed attention and were often resprayed several times to g=
ive the paint a =E2=80=98deeper=E2=80=99 appearance. Engine blocks were a sh=
iny black, as were hoses. Body and door shut lines underwent considerable wo=
rk and door shuts themselves were silky smooth in operation and quiet to ope=
rate. This was always difficult to achieve on the Herald, GT6 and Spitfire a=
s closing most doors on those models mostly sounded like putting the lid on a=
n empty trash can. Every night after show closure, the carpets, seats and do=
or cards in all cars were exchanged for new ones and any faults or problems r=
eported to the Stand Manager during the day were rectified. Knobs, switches,=
lenses that had been stolen or damaged through clumsy removal were also rep=
laced. Leaking or non functional hydraulics were replaced as well and there=E2=
=80=99s a moral here. NEVER buy a car that has done a stint as a display veh=
icle at a ten day motor show. It will have gone through hell in that time an=
d Engineering always studied reports of how the cars had held up during the s=
how. Theft, attempted or actual was by no means unknown and one day a man we=
aring a pair of white overalls was actually caught trying to remove a Herald=
differential!!! It happened on a Saturday when you could hardly move on the=
stand because of the crowds. Car =E2=80=98ride heights=E2=80=99 were often r=
aised a little to allow for the daily punishment of people of various weight=
s collapsing into cars on a crowded stand. This did little to give seats a g=
entle life! Mostly, this was achieved by temporarily fitting all cars with h=
eavy duty tropical suspension for the show duration. Doing this meant there w=
as nothing like the amount of =E2=80=9Cgive=E2=80=9D found in a car that was=
conventionally sprung.
<div><br clear=3D"none"></div>
<div>Was the motor show experience enjoyable? If you like standing on your f=
eet from 09.00 to 22.00 without somewhere to sit down, for ten days solid in=
an unhealthy atmosphere that gave everyone flu and talking to people who mo=
stly bored you witless and were often less than polite, eating the same outs=
ide catered lunch and no chance of a quick beer, I suppose it might have bee=
n. The truth was, it wasn=E2=80=99t. We all had to wear dark, tailored three=
piece suits (bought at our cost), starched cotton shirts with turned back c=
uffs and a detachable stiff shirt collar and sober tie. Shoes had to be poli=
shed like a guardsmans boots, clean finger nails, immaculately clean and par=
ted hair and heaven help you after a day attired like that if the Stand Mana=
ger detected even a tiny whiff of halitosis or sweat. Yes, I will admit we, S=
tandard Triumph=E2=80=99s public face, looked good and perhaps we had a litt=
le virtuous pride in ourselves - but to this day, I=E2=80=99ve yet to meet a=
ny car company employee or salesman who knew as much about his/her product A=
ND the same level of detail of every other make and model of car that compet=
ed with us. To this day and well over fifty years later, I=E2=80=99m still a=
mazed how much I can still recall.</div>
<div><br clear=3D"none"></div>
<div>Jonmac<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">
<div dir=3D"ltr" id=3D"yiv5493107758AppleMailSignature">Vote for Guy Fawkes!=
The only man who entered Parliament with honest intentions.</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none">On 8 Mar 2021, at 19:07, Greg Lemon <=
<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:grg=
lmn@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:grglmn@gmail.com";>grglmn@gma=
il.com</a>> wrote:<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"></div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>I don't believe the suspension was raised. Might appear taller as=
TR5 tires were skinnier 165, vs. 250 on wider 185/70, or just new springs r=
iding a little high.
<div><br clear=3D"none"></div>
<div>Greg Lemon</div>
<div>TR250</div>
</div>
<br clear=3D"none">
<div class=3D"yiv5493107758gmail_quote">
<div class=3D"yiv5493107758gmail_attr" dir=3D"ltr">On Mon, Mar 8, 2021, 12:2=
9 PM John Linney <<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" y=
mailto=3D"mailto:john@linneyweb.com"; target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:john@l=
inneyweb.com">john@linneyweb.com</a>> wrote:<br clear=3D"none"></div>
<blockquote class=3D"yiv5493107758gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;">Lovely car. Did they raise the ride hei=
ght from the TR4 / 4A? It looks a little high.<br clear=3D"none">
<div><br clear=3D"none"><blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>On Mar 8, 2021, at 9:27 AM, Don Hiscock <<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener=
noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:don.hiscock@gmail.com"; target=3D=
"_blank" href=3D"mailto:don.hiscock@gmail.com";>don.hiscock@gmail.com</a>>=
wrote:</div>
<br clear=3D"none">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"yiv5493107758gmail_quote">
<div class=3D"yiv5493107758gmail_attr" dir=3D"ltr">Friends in NL have report=
ed that a superbly-restored TR5, the original LHD car from the 1967 Earls Co=
urt Motor Show premiere, has been sold to the USA and is now in the midwest.=
</div>
<div class=3D"yiv5493107758gmail_attr" dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"></div>=
<div class=3D"yiv5493107758gmail_attr">Anybody know the car? It's said=
to be a pretty special TR, and I'd probably agree. My first car in li=
fe was a TR250, unrestorable given my budget, skills, and marque support at t=
he time. But today -- I wish I still had it!</div>
<br clear=3D"none">Here=E2=80=99s the sales ad:<br clear=3D"none">
<a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank" hre=
f=3D"https://www.jbclassiccars.com/?portfolio=3Dtriumph-tr5";>https://www.jbc=
lassiccars.com/?portfolio=3Dtriumph-tr5</a><br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<div class=3D"yiv5493107758gmail_quote"><br clear=3D"none"></div>
<div class=3D"yiv5493107758gmail_quote">Note the comments about the car's or=
iginal Swiss-specifications and the stuff around engines. Jonmac, this=
makes us smile to think about your efforts in this area back in the day.</d=
iv>
</div>
** <a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:=
triumphs@autox.team.net" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:triumphs@autox.tea=
m.net">triumphs@autox.team.net</a> **<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">D=
onate: <a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_bla=
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</blockquote></div>
<br clear=3D"none"></div>
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</blockquote></div>
</div>
</blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div dir=3D"ltr"><span>** <a rel=3D"nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape=3D"r=
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