Neat web page. Convinced me not to fool with Hydrazine in any way shape or
form.
John Beckett
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bryan A. Savage Jr" <basavage@earthlink.net>
To: "Dan Warner" <dwarner@electrorent.com>; <land-speed@autox.team.net>
Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2000 12:33 AM
Subject: Re: Nitropropane
> Hello Dan and list.
> Someone once told me that everyone knew that "fuel" meant nitro and/or
> alcohol so it wasn't specified by name. In fact my 1977 book says
> "any nonprepressuerized liquid fuel may be used".
>
> Then along came hydrazine. The rule book was changed because of it and
> some
> other "interesting" stuff from the aerospace program.
> I worked on the Atlas program in the early '60s and I would keep my
> distance
> (about 100 yards per quart) from the stuff.
>
> Check: http://www.olinultrapure.com/hydrazine/Propellants/Care.asp
>
> See you in August,
> Bryan Savage
>
>
> Dan Warner wrote:
> >
> > Greg,
> >
> > Anything other than provided gasoline will be considered a fuel. Your
list
> > of oxygen adding fuels is real close. Hydrazine would more than likely
be in
> > fuel class. Again, placing CNG, LPG, diesel, etc. into gas classes is
due to
> > a lack of entries.
> >
> > Engines using only compressed air as fuel I am no familiar with so, I
cannot
> > comment on that.
> >
> > Dan Warner
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Hyatt Engineering Ltd. <Hyatt-Engineering-Ltd@fuse.net>
> > To: Dan Warner <dwarner@electrorent.com>
> > Cc: <land-speed@autox.team.net>
> > Sent: Monday, June 05, 2000 7:50 PM
> > Subject: Re: Nitropropane
> >
> > > Thanks Dan,
> > >
> > > I am glad to hear that the rules are not as restrictive as I thought,
but
> > > just to make sure I understand let me paraphrase my understanding of
the
> > > intent of the rules. Please correct me if I still have it wrong.
> > >
> > > The FUEL class is differentiated from GAS by allowing oxygenated fuels
> > > and/or the use of oxidizers other than the atmospheric air. Examples
of
> > > oxygenated fuels would be nitromethane, nitropropane, methanol,
ethanol,
> > > propyleneoxide, etc.
> > > Examples of non-atmospheric oxidizers would be nitrous, O2 (compressed
> > > oxygen), hydrogen peroxide, etc.
> > >
> > > The GAS class is for non-oxygenated gas, or other non-oxygenated fuels
> > such
> > > as LPG, CNG, diesel, etc. Any oxidizers other than atmospheric air
are
> > > prohibited.
> > >
> > > Where would compressed air go ? Would an engine using compressed
> > atmospheric
> > > air be considered blown ?
> > >
> > > Where would non-oxygenated but potent fuels like hydrazine go ?
> > >
> > > Thanks for your patience with a LSR novice.
> > >
> > > Greg
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Dan Warner" <dwarner@electrorent.com>
> > > To: "Hyatt Engineering Ltd." <Hyatt-Engineering-Ltd@fuse.net>
> > > Cc: <land-speed@autox.team.net>
> > > Sent: Monday, June 05, 2000 9:16 AM
> > > Subject: Re: Nitropropane
> > >
> > >
> > > > Greg,
> > > >
> > > > Your last parargraph is the correct statement. You seem to be
reading
> > too
> > > > much into a very simple deal. The reason that CNG & LPG are allowed
to
> > run
> > > > in gas classes is that we probabally get one entry every 5 - 10
years
> > > using
> > > > these fuels. There are other safety considerations to be taken if
using
> > > > these fuels also. There doesn't seem to be any rational for creating
a
> > > > couple hundred classes for alternate fuel vehicles when there is no
> > > > interest. If in fact the alternate fuels are the latest answer,
where
> > are
> > > > the entries?
> > > >
> > > > Dan(fuel for thought) Warner
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: Hyatt Engineering Ltd. <Hyatt-Engineering-Ltd@fuse.net>
> > > > To: John Beckett <landspeedracer@email.msn.com>;
> > > <land-speed@autox.team.net>
> > > > Sent: Monday, June 05, 2000 4:40 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: Nitropropane
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > John,
> > > > >
> > > > > It's in II-2, "Approved fuels are: Nitrous Oxide, nitromethane,
> > alcohol
> > > > and
> > > > > non-approved gasoline."
> > > > > But to make things really confusing in the next paragraph you
find,
> > > > "Engines
> > > > > using CNG, LPG or diesel may compete in gasoline classes", even
though
> > > > LPG,
> > > > > CNG, and Diesel were not on the list of approved fuels.
> > > > > This would seem to indicate that a car running on LPG and nitrous
> > would
> > > > not
> > > > > be legal in any class, fuel or gas, as the nitrous excludes it
from
> > gas,
> > > > and
> > > > > LPG is not on the approved list for fuel ???
> > > > > Worse yet, by the letter of the law it seems illegal to run
approved
> > > > > gasoline in combination with nitrous in the fuel classes, again
> > approved
> > > > > gasoline is not on the list of legal fuels for fuel classes.
> > Obviously
> > > > that
> > > > > was not the intent of the rules as it is done all the time, but it
> > seems
> > > > to
> > > > > be what the book says.
> > > > > On the other hand there do not seem to be any limitations on
additives
> > > (in
> > > > > fuel classes), so perhaps gasoline with nitropropane added is just
> > > > > considered non-approved gasoline ??? Is anything still just an
> > additive
> > > > if
> > > > > you are using large percentages of it, like 49% ???
> > > > > Do you think it was the intent of the rules to allow any fuel in
the
> > > fuel
> > > > > classes, and the list in II-2 is just incomplete ?
> > > > >
> > > > > Even more confused than usual, Greg
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "John Beckett" <landspeedracer@email.msn.com>
> > > > > To: "Hyatt Engineering Ltd." <Hyatt-Engineering-Ltd@fuse.net>;
> > > > > <land-speed@autox.team.net>
> > > > > Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2000 8:33 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: Nitropropane
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Could be wrong here but I don't think there is a list of legal
fuels
> > > for
> > > > > > fuel class. Just legal gasoline for the gas class.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: "Hyatt Engineering Ltd." <Hyatt-Engineering-Ltd@fuse.net>
> > > > > > To: "John Beckett" <landspeedracer@email.msn.com>;
> > > > > > <land-speed@autox.team.net>
> > > > > > Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2000 6:11 PM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: Nitropropane
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > John,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Nitropropane is manufactured by:
> > > > > > > Angus Chemical Company
> > > > > > > 1500 E. Lake Cook Road
> > > > > > > Buffalo Grove Road, IL 60089
> > > > > > > Phone: 708-215-8600
> > > > > > > But they do not sell is small retail quantities. However
Angus is
> > > > also
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > major producer of nitromethane, so most of the folks selling
nitro
> > > buy
> > > > > it
> > > > > > > from Angus and could also get the nitropropane for you.
> > > > > > > It's ability to be mixed with gas would seem to make it
desirable
> > > for
> > > > > > anyone
> > > > > > > wanting to run in both gas and fuel classes with minimum
> > > modifications
> > > > > (if
> > > > > > > it was on the list of legal fuels).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Greg
> > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > From: "John Beckett" <landspeedracer@email.msn.com>
> > > > > > > To: "Hyatt Engineering Ltd." <Hyatt-Engineering-Ltd@fuse.net>;
> > > > > > > <land-speed@autox.team.net>
> > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2000 1:57 PM
> > > > > > > Subject: Fuel
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Greg
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Have read some material on nitropropane. I understand
that
> > it
> > > > > mixes
> > > > > > > well
> > > > > > > > with gasoline. Have only heard of it being used in the 15%
to
> > 20%
> > > > > range,
> > > > > > > but
> > > > > > > > don't know why you couldn't uses it at 50%. There may be
some
> > big
> > > > > > > > differences between nitro and gas vs. nitro and alcohol that
has
> > > > lead
> > > > > > all
> > > > > > > > the racers to run nitromethane today.
> > > > > > > > In small percentages may actually be easier to run your
> > > vehicle
> > > > > with
> > > > > > > > gasoline rather than alcohol. So where can one find
> > nitropropane?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > John Beckett, LSR #79
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > > From: "Hyatt Engineering Ltd."
<Hyatt-Engineering-Ltd@fuse.net>
> > > > > > > > To: "John Beckett" <landspeedracer@email.msn.com>;
> > > > > <ARDUNDOUG@aol.com>;
> > > > > > > > <land-speed@autox.team.net>
> > > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2000 9:40 AM
> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: MSD Detonation Detector and Cockpit Display
Meter
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > John,
> > > > > > > > > Back in the 50s some of the producers of nitro proposed
using
> > it
> > > > in
> > > > > > fuel
> > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > on-highway vehicles, and did a lot of research into
> > controlling
> > > > > knock
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > make it streatable. They used lab type "detonation
> > detectors",
> > > > high
> > > > > > > > > frequency accelerometers with data acquisition systems,
to
> > > > observe
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > knock. The conclusions were that nitromethane should
always
> > be
> > > > used
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > blends with nitropropane (usually around 50/50). The
> > > nitropropane
> > > > > > helped
> > > > > > > > > enormously in controlling the knock, for reasons that were
not
> > > > quite
> > > > > > > > > understood.
> > > > > > > > > While I bring this up primarily to point out that properly
> > > > > calibrated
> > > > > > > > > detonation detectors can certainly be useful with nitrous,
(I
> > > > > suspect
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > commercially available units are just calibrated for more
> > > > > conventional
> > > > > > > > > applications, or are sized incorrectly and are "clipping"
on
> > the
> > > > > high
> > > > > > > > > amplitude content of the spectrum), it prompts a few
questions
> > > and
> > > > > > > > > observations of my own:
> > > > > > > > > Why is nitropropane not included in the list of legal
fuels ?
> > By
> > > > all
> > > > > > > > > accounts I can find it is much more stable. While it has
a
> > > lower
> > > > > > oxygen
> > > > > > > > > content than nitromethane and makes less power when run
> > > undiluted,
> > > > > > > anyone
> > > > > > > > > running a mix could just use more of it.
> > > > > > > > > Does anyone run undiluted or lightly diluted nitro on the
salt
> > ?
> > > > > Most
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > the folks I have spoken to run weak mixes, under 25%
nitro,
> > but
> > > I
> > > > do
> > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > know how typical this is.
> > > > > > > > > Greg
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > > > From: "John Beckett" <landspeedracer@email.msn.com>
> > > > > > > > > To: <ARDUNDOUG@aol.com>; <land-speed@autox.team.net>
> > > > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 8:21 PM
> > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: MSD Detonation Detector and Cockpit Display
Meter
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Doug
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >From what little I know about these things they work
great
> > on
> > > > > > street
> > > > > > > > > > cars...are marginal on race cars...and I would guess
about
> > > > useless
> > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > > nitro.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > John Beckett, LSR #79
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > > > > From: <ARDUNDOUG@aol.com>
> > > > > > > > > > To: <land-speed@autox.team.net>
> > > > > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 3:55 PM
> > > > > > > > > > Subject: MSD Detonation Detector and Cockpit Display
Meter
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Group,
> > > > > > > > > > > Has any body out there used the MSD detonation
sensor
> > on
> > > > > nitro
> > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > has a
> > > > > > > > > > > readout in the cockpit for the driver to see. Chuck
Salmen
> > > has
> > > > > one
> > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > his
> > > > > > > > > > > $um-Fun gas roadster and he likes it. What I don't
know is
> > > how
> > > > > > they
> > > > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > > > > react to nitro which is on the verge of detonating at
all
> > > > times.
> > > > > > > > > > > Anybody had any
> > > > > experience?...............................Doug
> > > > > > > > King
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
|