Greg,
Anything other than provided gasoline will be considered a fuel. Your list
of oxygen adding fuels is real close. Hydrazine would more than likely be in
fuel class. Again, placing CNG, LPG, diesel, etc. into gas classes is due to
a lack of entries.
Engines using only compressed air as fuel I am no familiar with so, I cannot
comment on that.
Dan Warner
----- Original Message -----
From: Hyatt Engineering Ltd. <Hyatt-Engineering-Ltd@fuse.net>
To: Dan Warner <dwarner@electrorent.com>
Cc: <land-speed@autox.team.net>
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2000 7:50 PM
Subject: Re: Nitropropane
> Thanks Dan,
>
> I am glad to hear that the rules are not as restrictive as I thought, but
> just to make sure I understand let me paraphrase my understanding of the
> intent of the rules. Please correct me if I still have it wrong.
>
> The FUEL class is differentiated from GAS by allowing oxygenated fuels
> and/or the use of oxidizers other than the atmospheric air. Examples of
> oxygenated fuels would be nitromethane, nitropropane, methanol, ethanol,
> propyleneoxide, etc.
> Examples of non-atmospheric oxidizers would be nitrous, O2 (compressed
> oxygen), hydrogen peroxide, etc.
>
> The GAS class is for non-oxygenated gas, or other non-oxygenated fuels
such
> as LPG, CNG, diesel, etc. Any oxidizers other than atmospheric air are
> prohibited.
>
> Where would compressed air go ? Would an engine using compressed
atmospheric
> air be considered blown ?
>
> Where would non-oxygenated but potent fuels like hydrazine go ?
>
> Thanks for your patience with a LSR novice.
>
> Greg
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dan Warner" <dwarner@electrorent.com>
> To: "Hyatt Engineering Ltd." <Hyatt-Engineering-Ltd@fuse.net>
> Cc: <land-speed@autox.team.net>
> Sent: Monday, June 05, 2000 9:16 AM
> Subject: Re: Nitropropane
>
>
> > Greg,
> >
> > Your last parargraph is the correct statement. You seem to be reading
too
> > much into a very simple deal. The reason that CNG & LPG are allowed to
run
> > in gas classes is that we probabally get one entry every 5 - 10 years
> using
> > these fuels. There are other safety considerations to be taken if using
> > these fuels also. There doesn't seem to be any rational for creating a
> > couple hundred classes for alternate fuel vehicles when there is no
> > interest. If in fact the alternate fuels are the latest answer, where
are
> > the entries?
> >
> > Dan(fuel for thought) Warner
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Hyatt Engineering Ltd. <Hyatt-Engineering-Ltd@fuse.net>
> > To: John Beckett <landspeedracer@email.msn.com>;
> <land-speed@autox.team.net>
> > Sent: Monday, June 05, 2000 4:40 AM
> > Subject: Re: Nitropropane
> >
> >
> > > John,
> > >
> > > It's in II-2, "Approved fuels are: Nitrous Oxide, nitromethane,
alcohol
> > and
> > > non-approved gasoline."
> > > But to make things really confusing in the next paragraph you find,
> > "Engines
> > > using CNG, LPG or diesel may compete in gasoline classes", even though
> > LPG,
> > > CNG, and Diesel were not on the list of approved fuels.
> > > This would seem to indicate that a car running on LPG and nitrous
would
> > not
> > > be legal in any class, fuel or gas, as the nitrous excludes it from
gas,
> > and
> > > LPG is not on the approved list for fuel ???
> > > Worse yet, by the letter of the law it seems illegal to run approved
> > > gasoline in combination with nitrous in the fuel classes, again
approved
> > > gasoline is not on the list of legal fuels for fuel classes.
Obviously
> > that
> > > was not the intent of the rules as it is done all the time, but it
seems
> > to
> > > be what the book says.
> > > On the other hand there do not seem to be any limitations on additives
> (in
> > > fuel classes), so perhaps gasoline with nitropropane added is just
> > > considered non-approved gasoline ??? Is anything still just an
additive
> > if
> > > you are using large percentages of it, like 49% ???
> > > Do you think it was the intent of the rules to allow any fuel in the
> fuel
> > > classes, and the list in II-2 is just incomplete ?
> > >
> > > Even more confused than usual, Greg
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "John Beckett" <landspeedracer@email.msn.com>
> > > To: "Hyatt Engineering Ltd." <Hyatt-Engineering-Ltd@fuse.net>;
> > > <land-speed@autox.team.net>
> > > Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2000 8:33 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Nitropropane
> > >
> > >
> > > > Could be wrong here but I don't think there is a list of legal fuels
> for
> > > > fuel class. Just legal gasoline for the gas class.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Hyatt Engineering Ltd." <Hyatt-Engineering-Ltd@fuse.net>
> > > > To: "John Beckett" <landspeedracer@email.msn.com>;
> > > > <land-speed@autox.team.net>
> > > > Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2000 6:11 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: Nitropropane
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > John,
> > > > >
> > > > > Nitropropane is manufactured by:
> > > > > Angus Chemical Company
> > > > > 1500 E. Lake Cook Road
> > > > > Buffalo Grove Road, IL 60089
> > > > > Phone: 708-215-8600
> > > > > But they do not sell is small retail quantities. However Angus is
> > also
> > > > the
> > > > > major producer of nitromethane, so most of the folks selling nitro
> buy
> > > it
> > > > > from Angus and could also get the nitropropane for you.
> > > > > It's ability to be mixed with gas would seem to make it desirable
> for
> > > > anyone
> > > > > wanting to run in both gas and fuel classes with minimum
> modifications
> > > (if
> > > > > it was on the list of legal fuels).
> > > > >
> > > > > Greg
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "John Beckett" <landspeedracer@email.msn.com>
> > > > > To: "Hyatt Engineering Ltd." <Hyatt-Engineering-Ltd@fuse.net>;
> > > > > <land-speed@autox.team.net>
> > > > > Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2000 1:57 PM
> > > > > Subject: Fuel
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Greg
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Have read some material on nitropropane. I understand that
it
> > > mixes
> > > > > well
> > > > > > with gasoline. Have only heard of it being used in the 15% to
20%
> > > range,
> > > > > but
> > > > > > don't know why you couldn't uses it at 50%. There may be some
big
> > > > > > differences between nitro and gas vs. nitro and alcohol that has
> > lead
> > > > all
> > > > > > the racers to run nitromethane today.
> > > > > > In small percentages may actually be easier to run your
> vehicle
> > > with
> > > > > > gasoline rather than alcohol. So where can one find
nitropropane?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > John Beckett, LSR #79
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: "Hyatt Engineering Ltd." <Hyatt-Engineering-Ltd@fuse.net>
> > > > > > To: "John Beckett" <landspeedracer@email.msn.com>;
> > > <ARDUNDOUG@aol.com>;
> > > > > > <land-speed@autox.team.net>
> > > > > > Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2000 9:40 AM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: MSD Detonation Detector and Cockpit Display Meter
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > John,
> > > > > > > Back in the 50s some of the producers of nitro proposed using
it
> > in
> > > > fuel
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > on-highway vehicles, and did a lot of research into
controlling
> > > knock
> > > > to
> > > > > > > make it streatable. They used lab type "detonation
detectors",
> > high
> > > > > > > frequency accelerometers with data acquisition systems, to
> > observe
> > > > the
> > > > > > > knock. The conclusions were that nitromethane should always
be
> > used
> > > > in
> > > > > > > blends with nitropropane (usually around 50/50). The
> nitropropane
> > > > helped
> > > > > > > enormously in controlling the knock, for reasons that were not
> > quite
> > > > > > > understood.
> > > > > > > While I bring this up primarily to point out that properly
> > > calibrated
> > > > > > > detonation detectors can certainly be useful with nitrous, (I
> > > suspect
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > commercially available units are just calibrated for more
> > > conventional
> > > > > > > applications, or are sized incorrectly and are "clipping" on
the
> > > high
> > > > > > > amplitude content of the spectrum), it prompts a few questions
> and
> > > > > > > observations of my own:
> > > > > > > Why is nitropropane not included in the list of legal fuels ?
By
> > all
> > > > > > > accounts I can find it is much more stable. While it has a
> lower
> > > > oxygen
> > > > > > > content than nitromethane and makes less power when run
> undiluted,
> > > > > anyone
> > > > > > > running a mix could just use more of it.
> > > > > > > Does anyone run undiluted or lightly diluted nitro on the salt
?
> > > Most
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > the folks I have spoken to run weak mixes, under 25% nitro,
but
> I
> > do
> > > > not
> > > > > > > know how typical this is.
> > > > > > > Greg
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > From: "John Beckett" <landspeedracer@email.msn.com>
> > > > > > > To: <ARDUNDOUG@aol.com>; <land-speed@autox.team.net>
> > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 8:21 PM
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: MSD Detonation Detector and Cockpit Display Meter
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Doug
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >From what little I know about these things they work great
on
> > > > street
> > > > > > > > cars...are marginal on race cars...and I would guess about
> > useless
> > > > > with
> > > > > > > > nitro.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > John Beckett, LSR #79
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > > From: <ARDUNDOUG@aol.com>
> > > > > > > > To: <land-speed@autox.team.net>
> > > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 3:55 PM
> > > > > > > > Subject: MSD Detonation Detector and Cockpit Display Meter
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Group,
> > > > > > > > > Has any body out there used the MSD detonation sensor
on
> > > nitro
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > has a
> > > > > > > > > readout in the cockpit for the driver to see. Chuck Salmen
> has
> > > one
> > > > > on
> > > > > > > his
> > > > > > > > > $um-Fun gas roadster and he likes it. What I don't know is
> how
> > > > they
> > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > > react to nitro which is on the verge of detonating at all
> > times.
> > > > > > > > > Anybody had any
> > > experience?...............................Doug
> > > > > > King
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
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