--===============4323147130774347707==
--0000000000009ebd2c061fb8e525
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Andrew,
Interesting development with the Pertronix canister style coil.
I did have good luck with them in my own racer and other's for years, until
a string of failures during the past year. My own failed (epoxy filled),
along with numerous customers (including Terry Sopher, who has already
replied) with Pertronix canister type coils failing. These have been fired
by points/pertronix/CSI distributors. The failure seems to be independent
of the ignition type. Quality control is a real problem for them.
The Pertronix E-core coil is better, although it seems to struggle with a 6
cylinder engine when it gets north of 7,500 RPM and .032" plug gaps. A
non-issue for a 4 cylinder.
I've been testing an "off label" coil with my CSIPro distributor that looks
promising up to at least 8,000 rpm on a 6 cylinder.
I have been selling the CSI distributors for a couple of years now, and
they have been great! I've seen ONE failure due to a MASSIVE overvoltage
situation at max revs (voltmeter needle tried to wrap itself all the way
around!!!). CSI was able to repair it for a reasonable cost instead of
having to send it to the landfill and start over. Tech support from the
guy who actually designed the product is superb!
Jason Sukey
JS Performance Motoring, LLC
440.984.7720
jason@jsperformancemotoring.com
https://www.facebook.com/JSPerformanceMotoring/
On Wed, Aug 14, 2024 at 4:09=E2=80=AFPM Andrew Devenish via Fot <fot@autox.=
team.net>
wrote:
> I thought an update might be in order.
> Thank you for all the suggestions and ideas. Spoiler - still not fixed.
> I have removed and cleaned out the bowl/jet lines, the front had black
> debris, but I don=E2=80=99t think it was enough to block the line, and it=
did not
> fix the problem.
> Fuel pump. I have checked pressure and delivery from the pump, all is
> well. I have now changed to a smaller capacity positive displacement desi=
gn
> as there was concern over interaction of the internal and external pressu=
re
> regulators. Still not fixed.
> Could not find any vacuum leak. I=E2=80=99ve had the manifolds off and ba=
ck on
> since this issue has been around with no change.
>
> A couple of replies were pretty confident that I have an ignition vs fuel
> issue. As I can=E2=80=99t find any fuel issue, I now suspect they may be =
right. I
> run Petronix ignitor 1149 with their coil 40611. This is the correct 3ohm
> set up per Pertronix.
> I purchased a new coil from Amazon - but the replacement coil was
> defective and had a misfire from the start which I could ABA with the old
> coil. Talking with Pertronix the were concerned my new part was not their=
s,
> and maybe a cheap copy - I returned to Amazon, now waiting on a coil from
> Pertronix direct.
> As I=E2=80=99m playing with ignition now, what are you guys using for sig=
nal and
> for coil with good success ?
> Thank you for the advice and support - it will be sorted.
>
> Thank you,
> Andrew Devenish
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Aug 9, 2024, at 5:10=E2=80=AFPM, Andrew Devenish <gt6racer@msn.com> wr=
ote:
>
> =EF=BB=BF Hi Mike,
> The first question is a good one. The car was built for
> autocross by a guy in Indiana who knew his stuff. However, I bought it fr=
om
> a guy who had bought it to run PIB, but knew nothing about race engines. =
He
> had run it lean and holed #4. He told me he had not changed anything, but
> that is turning out not to be the case. (I suspect it holed the piston
> because I found he had fitted gros jets with the float level way too low)=
.
> I rebuilt it to same mechanical spec. It ran great but a little
> lean on the AAU needles for road course, so I=E2=80=99m now on AAA. It st=
ill runs
> great, unless it doesn=E2=80=99t =F0=9F=98=81.
> The car has had this issue since I built it. At first I thought
> the obvious - float heights, needle/seat, regulator pressure etc etc but
> while it always runs great I have this issues after a few =E2=80=9Claps=
=E2=80=9D.
> 2) The car had a Summit racing 3136 pump which has around 90GPH
> and an internal blow off at 7PSI, my regulator is at 4 PSI. Today I had
> taken the pump apart and checked it but all looked OK. I fitted a cheap
> solenoid pump in its place. Issue still there.
> I had checked both the Summit and now the solenoid pump for flow, there i=
s
> plenty.
> As I noted the float bowls are full when it quits running.
> 3) Great point - could be what I have. I know the fuel level in the
> jets is fine when not running, but a poor flow from bowl to jet would
> change that when running. My O2 is in the collector, so I can=E2=80=99t b=
e sure if
> it=E2=80=99s both carbs or just one. All 4 plugs look very similar, but t=
hat is
> possible as this =E2=80=9Clean=E2=80=9D condition is only for a few cycle=
s before it stops
> - not enough to color the plug. Will check when I can ( unfortunately a
> busy weekend coming up as I race sailboats too ). I=E2=80=99ve been think=
ing it is
> heat related, but it could just as easily be time. When I tried to run
> autocross it started to play up after 10 or so seconds of full throttle
> (which I can=E2=80=99t do in my yard). On autocross it would pull like cr=
azy, then
> go very flat, and then come back on, repeat. Your idea would do just that=
!
> 4) always worth a check, but it would have to be something that shows
> up only when hot.
> 5) yes, compression good. Between 220 and 225 for all, measured on
> crank with throttles open.
>
>
> Thanks also to the other responses that I received, I didn=E2=80=
=99t cc all
> on my replies in order to reduce the clutter=E2=80=A6
>
> Thank you,
> Andrew Devenish
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Aug 9, 2024, at 3:51=E2=80=AFPM, Mike Harmuth <ofracer@gmail.com> wrot=
e:
>
> =EF=BB=BF
> Hi Andrew, a couple of things to check.
> 1st, is this a new problem? if so, what did you touch last?
>
> 2d Verify fuel flow, not just pressure i.e Gallons per hour? Disconnect
> the fuel line at the carbs, and stick it into a 1 quart or one gallon
> clean/clear bottle/jug. Turn the fuel pump on and time how long it takes =
to
> fill (1 Qt/ 1Gal whatever size container you're using). If you're gettin=
g
> more than 20 gallons per hour, the flow is OK. Set the bottle aside and l=
et
> it settle out, look for particles, rubber, fuel cell foam, dirt. If so, s=
ee
> where that's coming from. For example, old fuel cell foam will break down
> and clog the intake. When the pump turns off, the fuel in the lines drops
> back flushing the intake clear until next time. Fuel filter clean? Fuel
> pressure reg OK? Not just holding pressure (I run 3.5 on my HS4s) but
> actually sending fuel down the line? The gallons per hour test will
> indicate if you need to look into any of these areas, if you're gelling
> enough fuel, more down the list for now.
> link to flow and fuel requirements chart
> https://historicracinggroup.com/resources/Reference_Material/Canton/Fuel%=
20Consumption%20and%20Flow%20Quick%20Ref%20by%20CM%20Filters.pdf
>
> 3. A problem I had with an identical set up, was rubber hose breaking dow=
n
> and settling into the little box shaped well in the carb bowl where the
> line to the jet connects. It's happened to me twice now, last time was in
> June with fairly new hose feeding the carbs. It restricted the flow to th=
e
> jet, even though the bowl was full. At high load, not enough fuel could g=
et
> past the blockage.
> <IMG_20240630_112925914.jpg>
>
> 4. Vacuum leak- Is there a crack or loose bolt on the intake manifold?
> With the engine running, spray carb cleaner around the manifold to block,
> carbs to manifold. A change in engine RPM means something was drawn in
> through a gap.
>
> 5. Compression check- Are all the cylinders within 5-10% of each other?
>
> Happy hunting
>
> mike h
>
> On Fri, Aug 9, 2024 at 3:03=E2=80=AFPM Andrew Devenish via Fot <fot@autox=
.team.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Guys,
>> My car ( 1300, 12.5:1 comp on Sunoco 110 race gas, dual HS4 )
>> is still giving me grief. I=E2=80=99ve chased all the things I can think=
of, but
>> still same problem. It starts and runs great, but after a few laps of th=
e
>> yard ( 5-6, only 1000ft or so per up/down lap, so quick accels then
>> braking to turn ) it goes very lean ( I have O2 sensor ) and stops. I=E2=
=80=99m
>> running it without the hood for these test runs. It always stops at the
>> entry to a turn.
>> I=E2=80=99ve been working on it a lot, so know it has fuel pres=
sure, and
>> the float bowls are full of fuel. All plugs look very similar. The needl=
es
>> (AAA) are the spring type, and the slides move freely. I use ATF as flui=
d,
>> but have tried 50 weight too.
>> After a minute or so it will fire back up, but only run enough t=
o
>> get back to the shop before going lean again. If I pull out the choke it
>> will run, but is unstable.
>> I have wrapped headers and a heat shield around the carbs but the=
y
>> do still get hot.
>>
>> Any ideas ? Thinking to try some less volatile fuel as it seems
>> heat related and the Sunoco evaporates so fast !
>>
>>
>> Thank you,
>> Andrew Devenish
>>
>> Sent from my iPad_______________________________________________
>> fot@autox.team.net
>>
>> http://www.fot-racing.com
>>
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
>> Unsubscribe/Manage <http://www.team.net/pipermail/fotUnsubscribe/Manage>=
:
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/ofracer@gmail.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
> fot@autox.team.net
>
> http://www.fot-racing.com
>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
> Unsubscribe/Manage <http://www.team.net/pipermail/fotUnsubscribe/Manage>:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/jason@jsperformancemotoring.com
>
>
>
--0000000000009ebd2c061fb8e525
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<div dir=3D"ltr">Andrew,<div>Interesting development with the Pertronix can=
ister style coil.<div><br></div><div>I did have good luck with them in my o=
wn racer and other's for years, until a string of failures during the p=
ast year.=C2=A0 My own failed (epoxy filled), along with numerous customers=
(including Terry Sopher, who has already replied)=C2=A0 with Pertronix can=
ister type coils failing. These have been fired by points/pertronix/CSI dis=
tributors.=C2=A0 The failure seems to be independent of the ignition type.=
=C2=A0 Quality control is a real problem for them.</div><div><br></div><div=
>The Pertronix E-core coil is better, although it seems to struggle with a =
6 cylinder engine when it gets north of 7,500 RPM and .032" plug gaps.=
=C2=A0 A non-issue for a 4 cylinder.=C2=A0=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>I=
've been testing an "off label" coil with my CSIPro distribut=
or that looks promising up to at least 8,000 rpm on a 6 cylinder.</div><div=
><br></div><div>I have been selling=C2=A0=C2=A0the CSI distributors for a c=
ouple of years now, and they have been great!=C2=A0 I've seen ONE failu=
re due to a MASSIVE overvoltage situation at max revs (voltmeter needle tri=
ed to wrap itself all the way around!!!).=C2=A0 CSI was able to repair it f=
or a reasonable cost instead of having to send it to the landfill and start=
over.=C2=A0 Tech support from the guy who actually designed the product is=
superb!</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br clear=
=3D"all"><div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"=
gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"lt=
r"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Jason Sukey</div><div><span></spa=
n><span></span>JS Performance Motoring, LLC<br></div><div>440.984.7720</div=
><div><a href=3D"mailto:jason@jsperformancemotoring.com"; target=3D"_blank">=
jason@jsperformancemotoring.com</a><br></div><div><a href=3D"https://www.fa=
cebook.com/JSPerformanceMotoring/" target=3D"_blank">https://www.facebook.c=
om/JSPerformanceMotoring/</a><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>=
</div></div></div><br></div></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div=
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Aug 14, 2024 at 4:09=E2=80=AFPM A=
ndrew Devenish via Fot <<a href=3D"mailto:fot@autox.team.net";>fot@autox.=
team.net</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D=
"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-le=
ft:1ex">
<div dir=3D"auto">
I thought an update might be in order.
<div>Thank you for all the suggestions and ideas. Spoiler - still not fixed=
.</div>
<div>I have removed and cleaned out the bowl/jet lines, the front had black=
debris, but I don=E2=80=99t think it was enough to block the line, and it =
did not fix the problem.</div>
<div>Fuel pump. I have checked pressure and delivery from the pump, all is =
well. I have now changed to a smaller capacity positive displacement design=
as there was concern over interaction of the internal and external pressur=
e regulators. Still not fixed.</div>
<div>Could not find any vacuum leak. I=E2=80=99ve had the manifolds off and=
back on since this issue has been around with no change.=C2=A0</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>A couple of replies were pretty confident that I have an ignition vs f=
uel issue. As I can=E2=80=99t find any fuel issue, I now suspect they may b=
e right. I run Petronix ignitor 1149 with their coil 40611. This is the cor=
rect 3ohm set up per Pertronix.</div>
<div>=C2=A0I purchased a new coil from Amazon - but the replacement coil wa=
s defective and had a misfire from the start which I could ABA with the old=
coil. Talking with Pertronix the were concerned my new part was not theirs=
, and maybe a cheap copy - I returned
to Amazon, now waiting on a coil from Pertronix direct.</div>
<div>As I=E2=80=99m playing with ignition now, what are you guys using for =
signal and for coil with good success ?=C2=A0</div>
<div>Thank you for the advice and support - it will be sorted.</div>
<div><br id=3D"m_-8551889879533404988lineBreakAtBeginningOfSignature">
<div dir=3D"ltr">Thank you,=C2=A0
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Andrew Devenish</div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Sent from my iPad</div>
</div>
</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">On Aug 9, 2024, at 5:10=E2=80=AFPM, Andrew Deveni=
sh <<a href=3D"mailto:gt6racer@msn.com"; target=3D"_blank">gt6racer@msn.c=
om</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF Hi Mike,
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 The first question is a good one. T=
he car was built for autocross by a guy in Indiana who knew his stuff. Howe=
ver, I bought it from a guy who had bought it to run PIB, but knew nothing =
about race engines. He had run it lean and holed #4. He told
me he had not changed anything, but that is turning out not to be the case=
. (I suspect it holed the piston because I found he had fitted gros jets wi=
th the float level way too low).=C2=A0</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I rebuilt it to same mechanical spec. It r=
an great but a little lean on the AAU needles for road course, so I=E2=80=
=99m now on AAA. It still runs great, unless it doesn=E2=80=99t =F0=9F=98=
=81.</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 The car has had this issue since I built i=
t. At first I thought the obvious - float heights, needle/seat, regulator p=
ressure etc etc but while it always runs great I have this issues after a f=
ew =E2=80=9Claps=E2=80=9D.</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 2) =C2=A0 The car had a Summit racing 3136 pump w=
hich has around 90GPH and an internal blow off at 7PSI, my regulator is at =
4 PSI. Today I had taken the pump apart and checked it but all looked OK. I=
fitted a cheap solenoid pump in its place. Issue still
there.</div>
<div>I had checked both the Summit and now the solenoid pump for flow, ther=
e is plenty.=C2=A0</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 As I noted the float bowls are full when it quits=
running.</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 3) Great point - could be what I have. I know the fuel l=
evel in the jets is fine when not running, but a poor flow from bowl to jet=
would change that when running. My O2 is in the collector, so I can=E2=80=
=99t be sure if it=E2=80=99s both carbs or just one. All 4
plugs look very similar, but that is possible as this =E2=80=9Clean=E2=80=
=9D condition is only for a few cycles before it stops - not enough to colo=
r the plug. Will check when I can ( unfortunately a busy weekend coming up =
as I race sailboats too ). I=E2=80=99ve been thinking it
is heat related, but it could just as easily be time. When I tried to run =
autocross it started to play up after 10 or so seconds of full throttle (wh=
ich I can=E2=80=99t do in my yard). On autocross it would pull like crazy, =
then go very flat, and then come back on,
repeat. Your idea would do just that !=C2=A0</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 4) always worth a check, but it would have to be somethi=
ng that shows up only when hot.=C2=A0</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 5) yes, compression good. Between 220 and 225 for all, m=
easured on crank with throttles open.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Thanks also to the other responses that I r=
eceived, I didn=E2=80=99t cc all on my replies in order to reduce the clutt=
er=E2=80=A6</div>
<div><br id=3D"m_-8551889879533404988lineBreakAtBeginningOfSignature">
<div dir=3D"ltr">Thank you,=C2=A0
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Andrew Devenish</div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Sent from my iPad</div>
</div>
</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">On Aug 9, 2024, at 3:51=E2=80=AFPM, Mike Harmuth =
<<a href=3D"mailto:ofracer@gmail.com"; target=3D"_blank">ofracer@gmail.co=
m</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF
<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Andrew, a couple of things to check.
<div>1st, is this a new problem? if so, what did you touch last?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>2d Verify fuel flow, not just pressure=C2=A0i.e Gallons per hour? Disc=
onnect the fuel line at the carbs, and stick it into a 1 quart or one gallo=
n clean/clear bottle/jug. Turn the fuel pump on and time how long it takes =
to fill (1 Qt/ 1Gal whatever size container
you're using).=C2=A0 If you're getting more than 20 gallons per ho=
ur, the flow is OK. Set the bottle aside and let it settle out, look for pa=
rticles, rubber, fuel cell foam, dirt. If so, see where that's coming f=
rom. For example, old fuel cell foam will break down
and clog the intake. When the pump turns off, the fuel in the lines drops =
back flushing the intake clear until next time. Fuel filter clean? Fuel pre=
ssure reg OK? Not just holding pressure (I run 3.5 on my HS4s) but actually=
sending fuel down the line? The
gallons per hour test will indicate if you need to look into any of these =
areas, if you're gelling enough fuel, more down the list for now.</div>
<div>link to flow and fuel requirements chart=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://histo=
ricracinggroup.com/resources/Reference_Material/Canton/Fuel%20Consumption%2=
0and%20Flow%20Quick%20Ref%20by%20CM%20Filters.pdf" target=3D"_blank">https:=
//historicracinggroup.com/resources/Reference_Material/Canton/Fuel%20Consum=
ption%20and%20Flow%20Quick%20Ref%20by%20CM%20Filters.pdf</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>3. A problem I had with an identical=C2=A0set up, was rubber hose brea=
king down and settling into the little box shaped=C2=A0well in the carb bow=
l where the line to the jet connects. It's happened=C2=A0to me twice no=
w, last time was in June with fairly new hose feeding
the carbs. It restricted the flow to the jet, even though the bowl was ful=
l. At high load, not enough fuel could get past the blockage.</div>
<div>
<div><IMG_20240630_112925914.jpg></div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>4. Vacuum leak- Is there a crack or loose bolt on the intake manifold?=
With the engine running, spray carb cleaner around the manifold to block, =
carbs to manifold. A change in engine RPM means something was drawn in thro=
ugh a gap.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>5. Compression check- Are all the cylinders within 5-10% of each other=
?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Happy hunting</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>mike h</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Aug 9, 2024 at 3:03=E2=80=AFP=
M Andrew Devenish via Fot <<a href=3D"mailto:fot@autox.team.net"; target=
=3D"_blank">fot@autox.team.net</a>> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
Guys, <br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 My car ( 1300, 12.5:1 comp on Sunoco 110=
race gas, dual HS4 ) is still giving me grief. I=E2=80=99ve chased all the=
things I can think of, but still same problem. It starts and runs great, b=
ut after a few laps of the yard ( 5-6, only 1000ft=C2=A0 or so per up/down
lap, so quick accels then braking to turn ) it goes very lean ( I have O2 =
sensor ) and stops. I=E2=80=99m running it without the hood for these test =
runs. It always stops at the entry to a turn.
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I=E2=80=99ve been working on it a lot, so=
know it has fuel pressure, and the float bowls are full of fuel. All plugs=
look very similar. The needles (AAA) are the spring type, and the slides m=
ove freely. I use ATF as fluid, but have tried 50 weight too.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 After a minute or so it will fire back up, but =
only run enough to get back to the shop before going lean again. If I pull =
out the choke it will run, but is unstable.
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I have wrapped headers and a heat shield around =
the carbs but they do still get hot.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Any ideas ?=C2=A0 Thinking to try some less vola=
tile fuel as it seems heat related and the Sunoco evaporates so fast !<br>
<br>
<br>
Thank you, <br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Andrew Devenish<br>
<br>
Sent from my iPad_______________________________________________<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:fot@autox.team.net"; target=3D"_blank">fot@autox.team.net<=
/a><br>
<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.fot-racing.com/"; rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank"=
>http://www.fot-racing.com</a><br>
<br>
et=3D"_blank">
Archive: <a href=3D"http://autox.team.net/archive"; rel=3D"noreferrer" targe=
t=3D"_blank">
http://autox.team.net/archive</a> <a href=3D"http://www.team.net/pipermail/=
fotUnsubscribe/Manage" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">
http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot<br>
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_______________________________________________<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:fot@autox.team.net"; target=3D"_blank">fot@autox.team.net<=
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<a href=3D"http://www.fot-racing.com"; rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">=
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et=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a><br>
Archive: <a href=3D"http://autox.team.net/archive"; rel=3D"noreferrer" targe=
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t/jason@jsperformancemotoring.com" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">htt=
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