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I've run into that a few times when setting up used gears.
I would favor the setting that gives you the best pattern, provided that the
lash isn't more than a couple thou over the high limit.
Regardless of any other settings, if the mesh isn't good the gears will fail...
Glen
-----Original Message-----
From: van.mulders.marcel <van.mulders.marcel@telenet.be>
To: fubog1 <fubog1@aol.com>; fot <fot@autox.team.net>
Sent: Thu, Sep 13, 2018 2:23 am
Subject: Re: [Fot] Fwd: Crown and pinion gear break in
Sometimes, I find that it is not possible to get the backlash and mesh pattern
right at the same time (on a diff that has not been welded). I go for the
correct mesh pattern then, with a backlash that is greater than recommended. Is
that only a sign of wear ?
Marcel
Van: "fot" <fot@autox.team.net>
Aan: "Bob Kramer" <rkramer56@gmail.com>, mdporter@dfn.com, "fot"
<fot@autox.team.net>
Verzonden: Woensdag 12 september 2018 19:22:39
Onderwerp: Re: [Fot] Fwd: Crown and pinion gear break in
The pattern is everything when setting gears up, if they don't mesh properly,
they're gonna run hot, make noise, and fail.
There are plenty of photos and illustrations of different patterns on the
internet.
I mix a little injuneers blue in with lubriplate white grease, paint a half
dozen teeth or so, and wrench the ring back and forth a few times, while
holding the pinion flange for extra preload; repeat 3 or 4 times around the
ring.
I use set-up bearings but it's not unusual to have to make fine adjustments
once the good bearings are fitted.
Preload is equally important, I don't use the pinion crush collar either, I fab
a solid collar and fit shims; a case spreader is easier to set the carrier in
but I've done many without.
Once you have everything set, you can put a box-end wrench on one of the ring
gear bolts and work it back and forth hard and you can feel when the mesh is
nice and smooth in both directions.
A couple things to watch for, sometimes the carrier will have runout from
warpage when it was welded, you'll never get a correct backlash setting or a
good pattern all the way around, and I often find the carrier bearing inner
races turning on the journal, if not too worn a little loctite is your friend
but if that race turns on the carrier it won't live long...
Glen
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Kramer via Fot <fot@autox.team.net>
To: Michael Porter <mdporter@dfn.com>
Cc: Triumph 'Friends of Triumph <fot@autox.team.net>
Sent: Wed, Sep 12, 2018 8:57 am
Subject: Re: [Fot] Fwd: Crown and pinion gear break in
I would add that if you buy the same brand bearing you can grind out the ID of
the old races to make it easier to remove them for test assemblies.
Bob Kramer
On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 2:08 PM, Michael Porter <mdporter@dfn.com> wrote:
On 9/10/2018 3:41 PM, Bob Kramer via Fot wrote:
I can't answer that but one could measure the dimension of the pinion
head and subtract it from the total shown to get the depth you would
want.
Bob Kramer
I suspect that there are variations in parts due to manufacturing
errors, tolerances stacking up, etc. Most of the parts made at the time
were not subject to the sort of scrutiny and computer-controlled
measurements that are common today (although even that isn't a guarantee of
uniformity--I had to redo a bunch of Toyota Supra IRS diffs in the early
`80s because the computer that assembled them was misprogrammed and it
swapped the shim stacks for the carrier bearings left to right).
That said, the safest way to get the diff repaired properly is attention
to the shims when disassembling, and then putting the shims back in the same
thicknesses and checking for the proper engagement pattern. It does require
some educated guesswork, and, often, disassembling and assembling a couple
of times, but, if the pattern is right, the diff will be reliable. I'd also
recommend using hard shims in place of crush spacers on the pinion whenever
possible if the pinion originally used those. It also is a bit easier if
one uses the case spreader judiciously on those housings requiring same, and
doesn't crank it up too much. Spread the case just enough to get the
carrier and bearings out. Figuring out the shim packs will be easier.
Cheers.
--
Michael Porter
Roswell, NM
Never let anyone drive you crazy when you know it's within walking distance....
_______________________________________________
fot@autox.team.net
http://www.fot-racing.com
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
_______________________________________________
fot@autox.team.net
http://www.fot-racing.com
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
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<font color='black' size='2' face='Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif'>
<div> <font size="2">I've run into that a few times when setting up used
gears.</font></div>
<div><font size="2">I would favor the setting that gives you the best pattern,
provided that the lash isn't more than a couple thou over the high
limit.</font></div>
<div><font size="2">Regardless of any other settings, if the mesh isn't good
the gears will fail...</font></div>
<div><font size="2">Glen</font><br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div
style="font-family:arial,helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black">-----Original
Message-----<br>
From: van.mulders.marcel <van.mulders.marcel@telenet.be><br>
To: fubog1 <fubog1@aol.com>; fot <fot@autox.team.net><br>
Sent: Thu, Sep 13, 2018 2:23 am<br>
Subject: Re: [Fot] Fwd: Crown and pinion gear break in<br>
<br>
<div id="AOLMsgPart_2_43ba33b9-5c76-4ac2-a067-061f70cfb367">
<div class="aolReplacedBody">
<div style="font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size:
10pt; color: #000000">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Sometimes, I find that it is not possible to get the backlash and mesh
pattern right at the same time (on a diff that has not been welded). I go for
the correct mesh pattern then, with a backlash that is greater than
recommended. Is that only a sign of wear ? </div>
<div>Marcel</div>
<hr id="aolmail_zwchr">
<div><b>Van: </b>"fot" <<a
removedlink__a3a02f34-5f0b-4d0d-ae2c-90a14fa2bded__href="mailto:fot@autox.team.net";>fot@autox.team.net</a>><br>
<b>Aan: </b>"Bob Kramer" <<a
removedlink__a3a02f34-5f0b-4d0d-ae2c-90a14fa2bded__href="mailto:rkramer56@gmail.com";>rkramer56@gmail.com</a>>,
<a
removedlink__a3a02f34-5f0b-4d0d-ae2c-90a14fa2bded__href="mailto:mdporter@dfn.com";>mdporter@dfn.com</a>,
"fot" <<a
removedlink__a3a02f34-5f0b-4d0d-ae2c-90a14fa2bded__href="mailto:fot@autox.team.net";>fot@autox.team.net</a>><br>
<b>Verzonden: </b>Woensdag 12 september 2018 19:22:39<br>
<b>Onderwerp: </b>Re: [Fot] Fwd: Crown and pinion gear break in<br>
</div>
<br>
<div><span style="color: black; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size: small;">
<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black">
<div id="aolmail_AOLMsgPart_2_0ef1842b-a91c-4583-a1b1-489a8d2c7f0d">
<span style="color: black; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size: small;">
<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black">
<div id="aolmail_AOLMsgPart_2_3c5bcc87-bb0b-436d-ac40-3730f0a9151a">
<span style="color: black; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size: small;">
<div> <span style="font-size: small;">The pattern is everything when setting
gears up, if they don't mesh properly, they're gonna run hot, make noise, and
fail.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size: small;">There are plenty of photos and
illustrations of different patterns on the internet.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size: small;">I mix a little injuneers blue in with
lubriplate white grease, paint a half dozen teeth or so, and wrench the ring
back and forth a few times, while holding the pinion flange for extra preload;
repeat 3 or 4 times around the ring.<br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size: small;">I use set-up bearings but it's not unusual
to have to make fine adjustments once the good bearings are fitted.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size: small;">Preload is equally important, I don't use
the pinion crush collar either, I fab a solid collar and fit shims; a case
spreader is easier to set the carrier in but I've done many
without.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size: small;">Once you have everything set, you can put
a box-end wrench on one of the ring gear bolts and work it back and forth hard
and you can feel when the mesh is nice and smooth in both
directions.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size: small;">A couple things to watch for, sometimes
the carrier will have runout from warpage when it was welded, you'll never get
a correct backlash setting or a good pattern all the way around, and I often
find the carrier bearing inner races turning on the journal, if not too worn a
little loctite is your friend but if that race turns on the carrier it won't
live long...</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size: small;">Glen<br>
</span></div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div
style="font-family:arial,helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black">-----Original
Message-----<br>
From: Bob Kramer via Fot <<a
removedlink__a3a02f34-5f0b-4d0d-ae2c-90a14fa2bded__href="mailto:fot@autox.team.net";>fot@autox.team.net</a>><br>
To: Michael Porter <<a
removedlink__a3a02f34-5f0b-4d0d-ae2c-90a14fa2bded__href="mailto:mdporter@dfn.com";>mdporter@dfn.com</a>><br>
Cc: Triumph 'Friends of Triumph <<a
removedlink__a3a02f34-5f0b-4d0d-ae2c-90a14fa2bded__href="mailto:fot@autox.team.net";>fot@autox.team.net</a>><br>
Sent: Wed, Sep 12, 2018 8:57 am<br>
Subject: Re: [Fot] Fwd: Crown and pinion gear break in<br>
<br>
<div id="aolmail_AOLMsgPart_1.2_69f3ee0f-771d-4796-bddc-148817a98a67">
<div class="aolmail_aolReplacedBody">
<div dir="ltr">I would add that if you buy the same brand bearing you can grind
out the ID of the old races to make it easier to remove them for test
assemblies.</div>
<div class="aolmail_aolmail_gmail_extra"><br clear="all">
<div>
<div class="aolmail_aolmail_gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">Bob Kramer</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="aolmail_aolmail_gmail_quote">On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 2:08 PM,
Michael Porter <span dir="ltr"><<a target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer"
removedlink__a3a02f34-5f0b-4d0d-ae2c-90a14fa2bded__href="mailto:mdporter@dfn.com";>mdporter@dfn.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="aolmail_aolmail_gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div class="aolmail_aolmail_m_4645890251388782201moz-cite-prefix">On 9/10/2018
3:41 PM, Bob Kramer via
Fot wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote>
<div dir="ltr">I can't answer that but one could measure the
dimension of the pinion head and subtract it from the total
shown to get the depth you would want. </div>
<div class="aolmail_aolmail_gmail_extra"><br clear="all">
<div>
<div class="aolmail_aolmail_m_4645890251388782201gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">Bob Kramer</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
I suspect that there are variations in parts due to manufacturing
errors, tolerances stacking up, etc. Most of the parts made at the
time were not subject to the sort of scrutiny and
computer-controlled measurements that are common today (although
even that isn't a guarantee of uniformity--I had to redo a bunch of
Toyota Supra IRS diffs in the early `80s because the computer that
assembled them was misprogrammed and it swapped the shim stacks for
the carrier bearings left to right).<br>
<br>
That said, the safest way to get the diff repaired properly is
attention to the shims when disassembling, and then putting the
shims back in the same thicknesses and checking for the proper
engagement pattern. It does require some educated guesswork, and,
often, disassembling and assembling a couple of times, but, if the
pattern is right, the diff will be reliable. I'd also recommend
using hard shims in place of crush spacers on the pinion whenever
possible if the pinion originally used those. It also is a bit
easier if one uses the case spreader judiciously on those housings
requiring same, and doesn't crank it up too much. Spread the case
just enough to get the carrier and bearings out. Figuring out the
shim packs will be easier.<br>
<br>
<br>
Cheers. <br>
<span class="aolmail_aolmail_HOEnZb"><span style="color: #888888;">
<pre class="aolmail_aolmail_m_4645890251388782201moz-signature">--
Michael Porter
Roswell, NM
Never let anyone drive you crazy when you know it's within walking
distance....</pre>
</span></span></div>
</blockquote></div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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