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Gee thanks.
This is making me reconsider my effort to put togther a vintage race Spitire
(got a couple potentials in the barn) as I'm not really sure I want to be
affiliated with the racing mentaliity I'm seeing tonight.
On the vintage racing scene the Mini drivers have seemed to be a more
reasonable lot.
Maybe that's the tack I'll follow in the future.
Thanks for being on the FOT list. Sorry I didn't meet the entrane
requirement of being a b*tth*le.
Cheers,
Jim
Dallas
Spitfire(s) and other toys.
_____
From: fot-bounces@autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.net] On
Behalf Of Bill Babcock
Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 11:45 PM
To: Bill Babcock
Cc: 'FOT'; britbits@netzero.com
Subject: Re: [Fot] Bedding Brakes, dangerous driving
Oops, I forgot, Pittsburg Grand Prix, Watkins Glen, and Beaverrun (last
year)
On Sep 25, 2008, at 9:37 PM, Bill Babcock wrote:
And if you're intent on staying off the tracks I race on, that would be most
of the west cost (PIR, Seattle Raceways, Mission, thunderhill, Infineon,
Laguna Seca, Willow Springs) plus last year VIR, Brainerd, Grattan, Road
America, Road Atlanta, Limerock, and Mosport. I expect to do Miller, and
Barbur next year as well. Have fun with the rest.
On Sep 25, 2008, at 9:24 PM, Jim wrote:
Define "speed".
Is it the speed your car is capable of... your personal preference, or the
normal speed of the run group?
If Steve was running around the track at some really reduced speed... yeah,
he should move off line. But what's the legal definition? 10mph slower?
20? 30? Who defines that?
What's more important on a race course? A clear line? Or predicable
drivers? What's safer?
Keeping in mind that the scenario is also an early morning warm up session.
Do you pull full rev full bore racing moves in that scenario? Where do you
race? So I can avoid those tracks?
Or did you read the original post at all? Going by too fast to read?
Or should I slow down my questions so you can understand?
Anyway... what's the ultimate goal of this mess? Corporate sponsorship and
playboy bunnies? That was 30+ year ago.
We're just supposed to be out there having fun.
Cheers,
Jim
Dallas
_____
From: Bill Babcock [mailto:Billb@bnj.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 11:14 PM
To: britbits@netzero.com
Cc: 'FOT'
Subject: Re: [Fot] Bedding Brakes, dangerous driving
Actually, it all comes down to whether or not you are at racing speed--your
racing speed. You are not required or expected to move off the line if you
are at speed. In fact it's a really bad idea. The overtaking drivers expect
you to hold to your line, and he is responsible for managing the pass in a
safe manner. What Steven was talking about is being on the line when he was
NOT at racing speed, in other words, when he did not need to be there. And
in any racing organization--vintage, SCCA or F1, you are NOT supposed to be
on the line then.
Bedding your brakes and breaking your engine in on line is not safe nor is
it wise driving. People coming up behind you may not be able to go where you
point them. I wasn't there so I couldn't say, but I bet that guy didn't go
into the dirt because he wanted to.
On Sep 25, 2008, at 9:05 PM, Jim wrote:
I understand the intent....
When I went through my drivers school in a vintage race group, the
understanding was that you "drove the line". If someone wanted to pass
you, it was their RESPONSIBILITY to make a safe pass.
Or is responsibility not a word to mention in this forum?
One of the other racers shared an anecdote of "moving off line" to allow
easier passing.. and having a racer come in after that session and give him
a new oriface for violating the basic rule.
When I was active in Vintage I was in a close cockpit car (Mini Cooper S) so
giving hand signals was difficult. But my expectation was that if I was
signalling right.. the overtaking car should use that information in order
to make a safe pass.
I guess it's something that needs to be discussed with each vintage group
and a consensus formed before racers go on track. If the rule is "stay on
the line" then one set of rule apply. If it's "if you're not at speed pick
a different line" that also needs to be agreed before cars hit the track.
It all comes down to communication.
Cheers,
Jim
Dallas
too many toys, not enough $$$
_____
From: fot-bounces@autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.net] On
Behalf Of Bill Babcock
Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 10:51 PM
To: britbits@netzero.com
Cc: 'FOT'
Subject: Re: [Fot] Bedding Brakes, dangerous driving
You may not like this answer, so here's your opportunity to delete before
reading.
I, and I'll bet many other people in the FOT, have been in the "douchebag's
position before, when some guy traveling at a speed that did NOT NEED to be
at the line, pointed me by while I was traveling at full chat--and pointed
me into a place I did not want to go. So my question is, if you were
traveling that slowly, why were you "pretty close to the line"? The line is
where you need to be when you need to be there, in other words, when you are
at speed and it's the only safe way through a corner. If you are driving to
the line, you don't need to be there. If the line is the only place that the
laws of physics permit your car to be, then you do.
There's a reason why they say in any good driver's meeting "if you are not
at racing speed, get off the line". Several years ago this guy who drove a
car at what I considered 3/10s asked me why I always passed him so closely.
I, and the entire race group, generally lapped him at least twice, sometimes
three times. He was driving the line, precisely. Just where his driving
instructor told him to drive. And he never deviated from the line. I
considered him the most dangerous thing I would encounter in any day on the
the track. I was thrilled when he quit "racing". In contrast, when you come
up on a gaggle of FV's battling it out, they might be 20 MPH slower than
you, but they need to be where they are. Nothing but respect for that, lift
and wait.
If you aren't at the limit, then you are blocking the only safe path through
the course at speed. the guys who are coming up behind you can't tuck in
behind and wait for you to finish a corner--they'd have to stand on their
brakes to do that, and that's dangerous in any racing condition. As Burt
Levy might say, the other driver was to blame, but you are responsible.
We really DO call this racing. Vintage events are car shows with picnics.
Vintage races are races. If you are not at racing speed you don't belong
anywhere near the racing line.
On Sep 25, 2008, at 6:04 PM, Jim wrote:
Steven,
Unfortunately they use the "r" word when describing vintage events... so
some of the "kids" who loved Pole Position or the different PC games feel
they need to drive like a jerk to be a "racer". Or maybe they saw "Days of
Thunder" once too often ;)
Aside from keeping an eye on the mirrors, it's probably not a bad idea to
install an in car camera. Next time.. grab an official and show them the
video. It's kind of hard to argue against a video.
Cheers,
Jim
Dallas
-----Original Message-----
From: fot-bounces@autox.team.net [mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.net] On
Behalf Of Steven Belfer
Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 6:24 PM
To: FOT
Subject: [Fot] Bedding Brakes, dangerous driving
Speaking of dangerous driving situations, two weekends ago I raced at
Buttonwillow in my TR3. I had new brakes that needed bedding. This meant I
needed to heat up my brakes in the first practice session, let them cool so
I could have good braking power for the rest of the weekend. I was in the
first group so at 8:30am, I told the proper official-type guys what I needed
to do and started in the back. I'm also running a fresh engine and feeling
that out as well. Anyway, after about 3 or 4 laps I'm just about done
bedding the brakes and I'm about to get lapped. This is the first "Warm-up"
session of the weekend. A red 2002 is approaching me and I waved him to the
left and moved to the right a little bit, while staying pretty close to the
line. Next thing I know the guy is passing me on the right ON THE DIRT at
full speed. He re-entered the track, got a little squirrelly, threw some
rocks onto my car and kept going. This guy was racing hard with a yellow
P1800 and not letting up one bit. He didn't want to sacrifice his lap time
when overtaking me. The level of aggression took me by surprise and made me
angry. It was, after all the morning warm-up and I truly did my best to get
my job done safely and get off
the race track. I tell my friends and family, when they ask if it's
dangerous, "You see, it's a gentlemen's sport and there's no prize money."
I would say that most of the drivers are safe and respectful of their
machines and their abilities but all it takes is one douchebag move and
you're in big trouble.
~SB
_______________________________________________
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Bill Babcock
Babcock & Jenkins
Billb@bnj.com
503.936.7660
www.bnj.com
Editor
Ke Nalu e-Magazine
Paddlesurfing's Web Journal
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Bill Babcock
Babcock & Jenkins
Billb@bnj.com
503.936.7660
www.bnj.com
Editor
Ke Nalu e-Magazine
Paddlesurfing's Web Journal
Bill@kenalu.com
www.kenalu.com
blog: www.ponohouse.com/ponoblog
_______________________________________________
Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
http://www.fot-racing.com
Fot mailing list
Fot@autox.team.net
http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/fot
Bill Babcock
Babcock & Jenkins
Billb@bnj.com
503.936.7660
www.bnj.com
Editor
Ke Nalu e-Magazine
Paddlesurfing's Web Journal
Bill@kenalu.com
www.kenalu.com
blog: www.ponohouse.com/ponoblog
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------=_NextPart_000_0122_01C91F6C.158693C0
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charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii=
">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.6000.16608" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY =
style=3D"WORD-WRAP: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-b=
reak: after-white-space">
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D578020505-26092008><FONT face=3D=
Arial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Gee thanks.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D578020505-26092008><FONT face=3D=
Arial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D578020505-26092008><FONT face=3D=
Arial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>This is making me reconsider my effort to put t=
ogther a =
vintage race Spitire (got a couple potentials in the barn) as I'm not re=
ally =
sure I want to be affiliated with the racing mentaliity I'm seeing =
tonight.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D578020505-26092008><FONT face=3D=
Arial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D578020505-26092008><FONT face=3D=
Arial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>On the vintage racing scene the Mini drivers ha=
ve seemed to =
be a more reasonable lot.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D578020505-26092008><FONT face=3D=
Arial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D578020505-26092008><FONT face=3D=
Arial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Maybe that's the tack I'll follow in the =
future.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D578020505-26092008><FONT face=3D=
Arial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D578020505-26092008><FONT face=3D=
Arial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Thanks for being on the FOT list. Sorry I=
didn't meet =
the entrane requirement of being a b*tth*le.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D578020505-26092008><FONT face=3D=
Arial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D578020505-26092008><FONT face=3D=
Arial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D578020505-26092008><FONT face=3D=
Arial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Cheers,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D578020505-26092008><FONT face=3D=
Arial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D578020505-26092008><FONT face=3D=
Arial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Jim</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D578020505-26092008><FONT face=3D=
Arial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Dallas</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D578020505-26092008><FONT face=3D=
Arial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Spitfire(s) and other toys.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>=
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D578020505-26092008><FONT face=3D=
Arial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D578020505-26092008></SPAN>&nbs=
p;</DIV><BR>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
<HR tabIndex=3D-1>
<FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> fot-bounces@autox.team.net =
[mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.net] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Bill =
Babcock<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, September 25, 2008 11:45 PM<BR><B>To:<=
/B> Bill =
Babcock<BR><B>Cc:</B> 'FOT'; britbits@netzero.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:=
[Fot] =
Bedding Brakes, dangerous driving<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>Oops, I forgot, Pittsburg Grand Prix, Watkins Glen, and Beave=
rrun =
(last year)<BR>
<DIV>
<DIV>On Sep 25, 2008, at 9:37 PM, Bill Babcock wrote:</DIV><BR =
class=3DApple-interchange-newline>
<BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite">
<DIV =
style=3D"WORD-WRAP: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line=
-break: after-white-space">And =
if you're intent on staying off the tracks I race on, that would be mo=
st of =
the west cost (PIR, Seattle Raceways, Mission, thunderhill, Infineon, =
Laguna =
Seca, Willow Springs) plus last year VIR, Brainerd, Grattan, Road Amer=
ica, =
Road Atlanta, Limerock, and Mosport. I expect to do Miller, and Barbur=
next =
year as well. Have fun with the rest. <BR>
<DIV>
<DIV>On Sep 25, 2008, at 9:24 PM, Jim wrote:</DIV><BR =
class=3DApple-interchange-newline>
<BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite">
<DIV =
style=3D"WORD-WRAP: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-li=
ne-break: after-white-space">
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D000231504-26092008><FONT f=
ace=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Define "speed".</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D000231504-26092008><FONT f=
ace=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D000231504-26092008><FONT f=
ace=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Is it the speed your car is capable of... y=
our personal =
preference, or the normal speed of the run group?</FONT></SPAN></DIV=
>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D000231504-26092008><FONT f=
ace=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D000231504-26092008><FONT f=
ace=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>If Steve was running around the track at so=
me really =
reduced speed... yeah, he should move off line. But what's the=
legal =
definition? 10mph slower? 20? 30? Who define=
s =
that?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D000231504-26092008><FONT f=
ace=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D000231504-26092008><FONT f=
ace=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>What's more important on a race course?&nbs=
p; A =
clear line? Or predicable drivers? What's =
safer?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D000231504-26092008><FONT f=
ace=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D000231504-26092008><FONT f=
ace=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Keeping in mind that the scenario is also a=
n early =
morning warm up session. Do you pull full rev full bore racing=
moves =
in that scenario? Where do you race? So I can avoid thos=
e =
tracks?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D000231504-26092008><FONT f=
ace=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D000231504-26092008><FONT f=
ace=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Or did you read the original post at all?&n=
bsp; Going =
by too fast to read?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D000231504-26092008><FONT f=
ace=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D000231504-26092008><FONT f=
ace=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Or should I slow down my questions so you c=
an =
understand?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D000231504-26092008><FONT f=
ace=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D000231504-26092008><FONT f=
ace=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Anyway... what's the ultimate goal of this =
mess? =
Corporate sponsorship and playboy bunnies? That was 30+ year =
ago. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D000231504-26092008><FONT f=
ace=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D000231504-26092008><FONT f=
ace=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>We're just supposed to be out there having =
fun. =
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D000231504-26092008><FONT f=
ace=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D000231504-26092008><FONT f=
ace=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D000231504-26092008><FONT f=
ace=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D000231504-26092008><FONT f=
ace=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Cheers,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D000231504-26092008><FONT f=
ace=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D000231504-26092008><FONT f=
ace=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Jim</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D000231504-26092008><FONT f=
ace=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Dallas</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D000231504-26092008><FONT f=
ace=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D000231504-26092008><FONT f=
ace=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV><BR>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dlef=
t>
<HR tabIndex=3D-1>
<FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Bill Babcock [<A =
href=3D"mailto:Billb@bnj.com";>mailto:Billb@bnj.com</A>] <BR><B>Sent:=
</B> =
Thursday, September 25, 2008 11:14 PM<BR><B>To:</B> <A =
href=3D"mailto:britbits@netzero.com";>britbits@netzero.com</A><BR><B>=
Cc:</B> =
'FOT'<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Fot] Bedding Brakes, dangerous =
driving<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>Actually, it all comes down to whether or not you are at =
racing =
speed--your racing speed. You are not required or expected to move o=
ff the =
line if you are at speed. In fact it's a really bad idea. The overta=
king =
drivers expect you to hold to your line, and he is responsible for m=
anaging =
the pass in a safe manner. What Steven was talking about is being on=
the =
line when he was NOT at racing speed, in other words, when he did no=
t need =
to be there. And in any racing organization--vintage, SCCA or F1, yo=
u are =
NOT supposed to be on the line then. =
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Bedding your brakes and breaking your engine in on line is not =
safe nor =
is it wise driving. People coming up behind you may not be able to g=
o where =
you point them. I wasn't there so I couldn't say, but I bet that guy=
didn't =
go into the dirt because he wanted to. </DIV>
<DIV><BR>
<DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV>On Sep 25, 2008, at 9:05 PM, Jim wrote:</DIV><BR =
class=3DApple-interchange-newline>
<BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite">
<DIV =
style=3D"WORD-WRAP: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-=
line-break: after-white-space">
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D484395603-26092008><FONT=
face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>I understand the intent....</FONT></SPAN>=
</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D484395603-26092008><FONT=
face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D484395603-26092008><FONT=
face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>When I went through my drivers school in =
a vintage =
race group, the understanding was that you "drove the line". =
If =
someone wanted to pass you, it was their RESPONSIBILITY to m=
ake a =
safe pass.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D484395603-26092008><FONT=
face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D484395603-26092008><FONT=
face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Or is responsibility not a word to mentio=
n in this =
forum?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D484395603-26092008><FONT=
face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D484395603-26092008><FONT=
face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>One of the other racers shared an anecdot=
e of "moving =
off line" to allow easier passing.. and having a racer come in aft=
er that =
session and give him a new oriface for violating the basic =
rule.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D484395603-26092008><FONT=
face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D484395603-26092008><FONT=
face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>When I was active in Vintage I was in a c=
lose cockpit =
car (Mini Cooper S) so giving hand signals was difficult. &nb=
sp; But =
my expectation was that if I was signalling right.. the overtaking=
car =
should use that information in order to make a safe =
pass.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D484395603-26092008><FONT=
face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D484395603-26092008><FONT=
face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>I guess it's something that needs to be d=
iscussed =
with each vintage group and a consensus formed before racers go on=
=
track. If the rule is "stay on the line" then one set of rul=
e =
apply. If it's "if you're not at speed pick a differen=
t line" =
that also needs to be agreed before cars hit the =
track.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D484395603-26092008><FONT=
face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D484395603-26092008><FONT=
face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>It all comes down to =
communication.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D484395603-26092008><FONT=
face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D484395603-26092008><FONT=
face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D484395603-26092008><FONT=
face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Cheers,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D484395603-26092008><FONT=
face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D484395603-26092008><FONT=
face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Jim</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D484395603-26092008><FONT=
face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Dallas</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D484395603-26092008><FONT=
face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>too many toys, not enough $$$</FONT></SPA=
N></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dl=
eft>
<HR tabIndex=3D-1>
<FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> <A =
href=3D"mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.net";>fot-bounces@autox.team.=
net</A> =
[<A =
href=3D"mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.net";>mailto:fot-bounces@auto=
x.team.net</A>] =
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Bill Babcock<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, Septemb=
er 25, =
2008 10:51 PM<BR><B>To:</B> <A =
href=3D"mailto:britbits@netzero.com";>britbits@netzero.com</A><BR><=
B>Cc:</B> =
'FOT'<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Fot] Bedding Brakes, dangerous =
driving<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>You may not like this answer, so here's your opportunit=
y to =
delete before reading. =
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>I, and I'll bet many other people in the FOT, have been in th=
e =
"douchebag's position before, when some guy traveling at a speed t=
hat did =
NOT NEED to be at the line, pointed me by while I was traveling at=
full =
chat--and pointed me into a place I did not want to go. So my ques=
tion is, =
if you were traveling that slowly, why were you "pretty =
close to =
the line"? The line is where you need to be when you need to be th=
ere, in =
other words, when you are at speed and it's the only safe way thro=
ugh a =
corner. If you are <SPAN class=3DApple-style-span =
style=3D"TEXT-DECORATION: underline">driving</SPAN> to the line, y=
ou don't =
need to be there. If the line is the only place that the laws of p=
hysics =
permit your car to be, then you do. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>There's a reason why they say in any good driver's meeting "i=
f you =
are not at racing speed, get off the line". Several years ago this=
guy who =
drove a car at what I considered 3/10s asked me why I always passe=
d him so =
closely. I, and the entire race group, generally lapped him at lea=
st =
twice, sometimes three times. He was driving the line, precisely. =
Just =
where his driving instructor told him to drive. And he never devia=
ted from =
the line. I considered him the most dangerous thing I would encoun=
ter in =
any day on the the track. I was thrilled when he quit "racing". In=
=
contrast, when you come up on a gaggle of FV's battling it out, th=
ey might =
be 20 MPH slower than you, but they need to be where they are. Not=
hing =
but respect for that, lift and wait. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>If you aren't at the limit, then you are blocking the only sa=
fe path =
through the course at speed. the guys who are coming up behind you=
can't =
tuck in behind and wait for you to finish a corner--they'd have to=
stand =
on their brakes to do that, and that's dangerous in any racing con=
dition. =
As Burt Levy might say, the other driver was to blame, but you are=
=
responsible. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>We really DO call this racing. Vintage events are car shows w=
ith =
picnics. Vintage races are races. If you are not at racing speed y=
ou don't =
belong anywhere near the racing line. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV>On Sep 25, 2008, at 6:04 PM, Jim wrote:</DIV><BR =
class=3DApple-interchange-newline>
<BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite">
<DIV>Steven,<BR><BR>Unfortunately they use the "r" word when des=
cribing =
vintage events... so<BR>some of the "kids" who loved Pole Positi=
on or =
the different PC games feel<BR>they need to drive like a jerk to=
be a =
"racer". Or maybe they saw "Days of<BR>Thunder" once too o=
ften =
;)<BR><BR>Aside from keeping an eye on the mirrors, it's probabl=
y not a =
bad idea to<BR>install an in car camera. Next time.. grab =
an =
official and show them the<BR>video. It's kind of hard to =
argue =
against a =
video.<BR><BR><BR>Cheers,<BR><BR>Jim<BR>Dallas<BR><BR><BR>-----O=
riginal =
Message-----<BR>From: <A =
href=3D"mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.net";>fot-bounces@autox.tea=
m.net</A> =
[<A =
href=3D"mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.net";>mailto:fot-bounces@au=
tox.team.net</A>] =
On<BR>Behalf Of Steven Belfer<BR>Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2=
008 6:24 =
PM<BR>To: FOT<BR>Subject: [Fot] Bedding Brakes, dangerous =
driving<BR><BR>Speaking of dangerous driving situations, t=
wo =
weekends ago I raced at<BR>Buttonwillow in my TR3. I had n=
ew =
brakes that needed bedding. This meant I<BR>needed to heat=
up my =
brakes in the first practice session, let them cool so<BR>I coul=
d have =
good braking power for the rest of the weekend. I was in =
the<BR>first group so at 8:30am, I told the proper official-type=
guys =
what I needed<BR>to do and started in the back. I'm also r=
unning a =
fresh engine and feeling<BR>that out as well. Anyway, afte=
r about =
3 or 4 laps I'm just about done<BR>bedding the brakes and I'm ab=
out to =
get lapped. This is the first "Warm-up"<BR>session of the =
weekend. =
A red 2002 is approaching me and I waved him to the<BR>lef=
t and =
moved to the right a little bit, while staying pretty close to =
the<BR>line. Next thing I know the guy is passing me on th=
e right =
ON THE DIRT at<BR>full speed. He re-entered the track, got a lit=
tle =
squirrelly, threw some<BR>rocks onto my car and kept going. &nbs=
p;This =
guy was racing hard with a yellow<BR>P1800 and not letting up on=
e bit. =
He didn't want to sacrifice his lap time<BR>when overtakin=
g me. =
The level of aggression took me by surprise and made me<BR=
>angry. =
It was, after all the morning warm-up and I truly did my b=
est to =
get<BR>my job done safely and get off <BR>the race track. =
=
I tell my friends and family, when they ask if it's =
=
<BR>dangerous, "You see, it's a gentlemen's sport and ther=
e's no =
prize money."<BR>I would say that most of the drivers are safe a=
nd =
respectful of their<BR>machines and their abilities but all it t=
akes is =
one douchebag move and<BR>you're in big =
trouble.<BR><BR>~SB<BR><BR><BR>_________________________________=
______________<BR>Support =
Team.Net <A =
href=3D"http://www.team.net/donate.html";>http://www.team.net/don=
ate.html</A><BR><BR><A =
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<BR><BR>Fot =
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here to find answers for Love, Problems, and what your Future =
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<DIV>
<DIV><FONT class=3DApple-style-span color=3D#010000>Editor</FONT><=
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