Fair enough. Steve, I am sorry.
datsunmike wrote:
>
> Marc,
>
> While I always listen and appreciate the knowledge given and offered by you,
> in this instance I don't agree with your comments.
>
> I don't think Steve is being Dean's shill. I don't think anyone can be a
> shill w/o their consent. Steve did type up the post and did it as a favor
> for those who didn't know of an aftermarket dash cover for their low
> windshield cars.
>
> I have known Dean since the late mid 80s when he first started his business
> after 2 vendors I used to use went out of business - Rising Sun (when
> operated by Pam and Scott Scheeler) and the Roadster Store in NJ. I stick
> with those people who have always been there to help me out and who are
> easily acessable and don't make it difficult to order parts. I try to be
> loyal, rightfully or wrongly.
>
> Yes, I had some differences with him about his attitude in later years but
> after I and another Roadster owner brow beat him this past May (and me
> several times before that), I noticed an attitude change. I am never one to
> couch my opinions and being a NYer I am in your face telling you exactly how
> and what I feel. Dean is also a NYer. I've argued with him several times. I
> have partied with Dean many times whenever he comes back to visit NY and I
> can vouch that he really cares about these cars and keeping them on the
> road, as I am sure do many of the vendors. To him it's not all about the
> money.
>
> Dean is a perfectionist and sometimes gets upset at the foolishness
> displayed by some Roadster owners. What do I mean? Someone ordering visual
> enhancements while ignoring safety issues such as front ends, brakes and
> other maintainence necessary to keep their cars running correctly. I know of
> 1 owner who is like that; always concentrating on visuals while ignoring the
> important things. I am sure we all know someone like that.
>
> Why the vendors don't get along I don't know (I do know some of the reasons
> but I'll leave it at that).
>
> When I asked him very recently about why he wasn't on the List (or even have
> email) he told me he didn't want to hawk his products or give the impression
> he was doing so. He also said he didn't have the time to respond to all the
> emails he would receive.
>
> Be it as it may, Dean does have products no other vendor sells and paid for
> the tooling costs in the thought that NLA products may be needed by some of
> us. He's right.
>
> While you have the right to feel as you do, I really think you're being way
> too harsh, especially on Steve. I feel you owe him an apology.
>
> Mike
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Marc Sayer" <marc@gracieland.org>
> To: <datsun-roadsters@autox.team.net>
> Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2002 10:15 PM
> Subject: Re: datsunparts.com Dashes
>
> > sidney raper wrote:
> > >
> > > Those are mighty strong words. Let me say that I have not bought
> ANYTHING
> > > from Dean, so I cannot be a shill. He seems to have some stuff that
> other
> > > vendors don't carry. Some of it looks darned good. I have heard some
> > > issues with Dean, but I have heard similar issues with ALL of the
> vendors.
> > > All of the vendors serve a purpose.
> > >
> > > I will close with one rhetorical question - is it better to use a shill
> from
> > > time to time, or to prostitute a business on the list on a regular
> basis? I
> > > have heard charges of the latter on this list as well.
> > >
> > > Caveat Emptor.
> >
> >
> > First, those words weren't really all that strong. I am mightily offended
> by
> > someone using shills to promote their business (a technique generally used
> only
> > by con artists and hustlers and not by reputable businesses, that adds the
> > apparent extra cachet of a testimonial or endorsement to what is in fact
> merely
> > self-promotion). I am sorry if my pointing this out upsets folks, but if
> > someone acts in a certain way, they have to expect some folks to comment
> on it
> > (and the caveat in the original post clearly indicates they were expecting
> some
> > flack). If someone does not like being called a shill, they should stop
> being
> > one. And if someone does not like being taken to task for using a shill,
> again
> > the solution is simple, stop using them.
> >
> > Second, look up the definition of shill. Someone's having, or having not,
> > purchased anything from him is irrelevant. Shill - a person who
> publicizes or
> > praises something for someone - The key being that it is done *for* the
> > person being promoted, in otherwords at his request or on his behalf, and
> as
> > the original post indicated that was exactly the case "he asked if I would
> > post some info to the list" However, the original poster would meet even
> your
> > definition of a shill "I just ordered some parts from Dean at Fairlady
> Products
> > today..."
> >
> > Third, the issue of what Dean does or does not carry is also irrelevant.
> The
> > point is, if he wants to use the list to promote his stuff, let him become
> an
> > active participant of the list and do his own promotions. Yes all vendors
> serve
> > a purpose, the issue isn't whether Dean sells stuff for the Roadsters,
> it's
> > whether he abuses the list by getting people to shill for him on it. By
> the
> > poster's own admission he *asked* them to make the original post, so there
> is
> > no question but that he is *intentionally* using shills on the list. Yes
> there
> > have been nasty comments leveled at all the vendors at one time or
> another.
> > The fact that everyone gets caught up in that also has no bearing other
> than
> > to illustrate that the other vendors are on the list and have to face
> their
> > accusers there, and Dean is not. And no, you have never heard similar
> issues
> > about Les, Ross, Stan, or Dann because the issues at hand are being on the
> list
> > and using shills on the list. All three of them are on the list, and none
> of
> > them use shills on the list.
> >
> > Fourth, offering up reasonable periodic sales info that is obviously
> promotional
> > (as Ross does) is fine. It is obvious what the post is and folks can take
> it or
> > leave it as they see fit. It is above board and clearly an advertisement,
> made
> > with the approval of the list. It is clear that the person is promoting
> > themselves. OTOH making an ad or self-promotion look like its not an ad or
> > self-promotion by arranging it to look like it's just some guy who just is
> > really so happy with a vendor that he wanted to do the vendor an extra
> favor by
> > talking him up on the list, is intrinsically deceptive. That's why the
> term
> > shill has negative connotations. The other vendors on the list in no way
> > prostitute themselves on this list. They may *promote* their businesses on
> the
> > list, but this is done in keeping with the rules of the list. None of them
> are
> > doing anything base, unworthy, or in exchange for sex, which is the
> standard for
> > the applicable use of the word prostitute. And most importantly of all,
> none of
> > them feel the need to resort to shills to promote their businesses on this
> > list.
> >
> > Dean is the only vendor who continually uses shills on the list to promote
> his
> > business, and that was what I was taking issue with. Whether the other
> vendors
> > have had upset customers complain about them on the list, or had
> competitors
> > or friends of competitors bad mouth them on the list, or their hair is
> brown,
> > or they're under 6 feet tall, or they live in Canada, none of this is
> relevant
> > to the issues I raised and do not belong in a rebuttal of my comments.
> Even if
> > they ran their business out of their mother's garage, this too would be
> > irrelevant and would not belong in a rebuttal of my comments.
> >
> > Please do not take offense at this reply Sidney as none was intended. I
> just am
> > not willing to let this issue get clouded or have the focus changed. The
> issue
> > was that Dean again had a shill post a bit of promotion on the list, and I
> > finally spoke out against that behavior. If people want to argue that they
> have
> > no objection to that sort of behavior, that they do not mind someone
> trying to
> > cash in on the list without even having the courtesy to be on the list,
> and the
> > list is okay with that sort of thing, then I will shut up. Arguing his
> prices or
> > parts availability justifying his methods isn't going to work. He can let
> you
> > know about them just as effectively by being on the list and doing it
> himself.
> > And then everyone will see it for what it is, another piece of business
> > self-promotion. Whether we realize it or not, there is clear evidence that
> all
> > of us respond more favorably to, and tend to be more trusting of, third
> party
> > testimonials. This means we are more likely to believe something if we
> hear it
> > from a third, so-called disinterested party. That tendency on our parts
> gives a
> > shill's comments extra weight compared to a advertisement unless someone
> makes a
> > stink and points out that it is really just the someone promoting himself
> by
> > using the third party. So here I am making the stink.
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Marc Sayer
> > 82 280ZXT
> > 71 510 2.5 Trans Am vintage racer
> >
> > /// datsun-roadsters@autox.team.net mailing list
> > /// Send admin requests to majordomo@autox.team.net or go to
> > /// http://www.team.net/cgi-bin/majorcool
> > /// Send list postings to datsun-roadsters@autox.team.net
> >
> >
--
Marc Sayer
82 280ZXT
71 510 2.5 Trans Am vintage racer
/// datsun-roadsters@autox.team.net mailing list
|