Marc,
While I always listen and appreciate the knowledge given and offered by you,
in this instance I don't agree with your comments.
I don't think Steve is being Dean's shill. I don't think anyone can be a
shill w/o their consent. Steve did type up the post and did it as a favor
for those who didn't know of an aftermarket dash cover for their low
windshield cars.
I have known Dean since the late mid 80s when he first started his business
after 2 vendors I used to use went out of business - Rising Sun (when
operated by Pam and Scott Scheeler) and the Roadster Store in NJ. I stick
with those people who have always been there to help me out and who are
easily acessable and don't make it difficult to order parts. I try to be
loyal, rightfully or wrongly.
Yes, I had some differences with him about his attitude in later years but
after I and another Roadster owner brow beat him this past May (and me
several times before that), I noticed an attitude change. I am never one to
couch my opinions and being a NYer I am in your face telling you exactly how
and what I feel. Dean is also a NYer. I've argued with him several times. I
have partied with Dean many times whenever he comes back to visit NY and I
can vouch that he really cares about these cars and keeping them on the
road, as I am sure do many of the vendors. To him it's not all about the
money.
Dean is a perfectionist and sometimes gets upset at the foolishness
displayed by some Roadster owners. What do I mean? Someone ordering visual
enhancements while ignoring safety issues such as front ends, brakes and
other maintainence necessary to keep their cars running correctly. I know of
1 owner who is like that; always concentrating on visuals while ignoring the
important things. I am sure we all know someone like that.
Why the vendors don't get along I don't know (I do know some of the reasons
but I'll leave it at that).
When I asked him very recently about why he wasn't on the List (or even have
email) he told me he didn't want to hawk his products or give the impression
he was doing so. He also said he didn't have the time to respond to all the
emails he would receive.
Be it as it may, Dean does have products no other vendor sells and paid for
the tooling costs in the thought that NLA products may be needed by some of
us. He's right.
While you have the right to feel as you do, I really think you're being way
too harsh, especially on Steve. I feel you owe him an apology.
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marc Sayer" <marc@gracieland.org>
To: <datsun-roadsters@autox.team.net>
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2002 10:15 PM
Subject: Re: datsunparts.com Dashes
> sidney raper wrote:
> >
> > Those are mighty strong words. Let me say that I have not bought
ANYTHING
> > from Dean, so I cannot be a shill. He seems to have some stuff that
other
> > vendors don't carry. Some of it looks darned good. I have heard some
> > issues with Dean, but I have heard similar issues with ALL of the
vendors.
> > All of the vendors serve a purpose.
> >
> > I will close with one rhetorical question - is it better to use a shill
from
> > time to time, or to prostitute a business on the list on a regular
basis? I
> > have heard charges of the latter on this list as well.
> >
> > Caveat Emptor.
>
>
> First, those words weren't really all that strong. I am mightily offended
by
> someone using shills to promote their business (a technique generally used
only
> by con artists and hustlers and not by reputable businesses, that adds the
> apparent extra cachet of a testimonial or endorsement to what is in fact
merely
> self-promotion). I am sorry if my pointing this out upsets folks, but if
> someone acts in a certain way, they have to expect some folks to comment
on it
> (and the caveat in the original post clearly indicates they were expecting
some
> flack). If someone does not like being called a shill, they should stop
being
> one. And if someone does not like being taken to task for using a shill,
again
> the solution is simple, stop using them.
>
> Second, look up the definition of shill. Someone's having, or having not,
> purchased anything from him is irrelevant. Shill - a person who
publicizes or
> praises something for someone - The key being that it is done *for* the
> person being promoted, in otherwords at his request or on his behalf, and
as
> the original post indicated that was exactly the case "he asked if I would
> post some info to the list" However, the original poster would meet even
your
> definition of a shill "I just ordered some parts from Dean at Fairlady
Products
> today..."
>
> Third, the issue of what Dean does or does not carry is also irrelevant.
The
> point is, if he wants to use the list to promote his stuff, let him become
an
> active participant of the list and do his own promotions. Yes all vendors
serve
> a purpose, the issue isn't whether Dean sells stuff for the Roadsters,
it's
> whether he abuses the list by getting people to shill for him on it. By
the
> poster's own admission he *asked* them to make the original post, so there
is
> no question but that he is *intentionally* using shills on the list. Yes
there
> have been nasty comments leveled at all the vendors at one time or
another.
> The fact that everyone gets caught up in that also has no bearing other
than
> to illustrate that the other vendors are on the list and have to face
their
> accusers there, and Dean is not. And no, you have never heard similar
issues
> about Les, Ross, Stan, or Dann because the issues at hand are being on the
list
> and using shills on the list. All three of them are on the list, and none
of
> them use shills on the list.
>
> Fourth, offering up reasonable periodic sales info that is obviously
promotional
> (as Ross does) is fine. It is obvious what the post is and folks can take
it or
> leave it as they see fit. It is above board and clearly an advertisement,
made
> with the approval of the list. It is clear that the person is promoting
> themselves. OTOH making an ad or self-promotion look like its not an ad or
> self-promotion by arranging it to look like it's just some guy who just is
> really so happy with a vendor that he wanted to do the vendor an extra
favor by
> talking him up on the list, is intrinsically deceptive. That's why the
term
> shill has negative connotations. The other vendors on the list in no way
> prostitute themselves on this list. They may *promote* their businesses on
the
> list, but this is done in keeping with the rules of the list. None of them
are
> doing anything base, unworthy, or in exchange for sex, which is the
standard for
> the applicable use of the word prostitute. And most importantly of all,
none of
> them feel the need to resort to shills to promote their businesses on this
> list.
>
> Dean is the only vendor who continually uses shills on the list to promote
his
> business, and that was what I was taking issue with. Whether the other
vendors
> have had upset customers complain about them on the list, or had
competitors
> or friends of competitors bad mouth them on the list, or their hair is
brown,
> or they're under 6 feet tall, or they live in Canada, none of this is
relevant
> to the issues I raised and do not belong in a rebuttal of my comments.
Even if
> they ran their business out of their mother's garage, this too would be
> irrelevant and would not belong in a rebuttal of my comments.
>
> Please do not take offense at this reply Sidney as none was intended. I
just am
> not willing to let this issue get clouded or have the focus changed. The
issue
> was that Dean again had a shill post a bit of promotion on the list, and I
> finally spoke out against that behavior. If people want to argue that they
have
> no objection to that sort of behavior, that they do not mind someone
trying to
> cash in on the list without even having the courtesy to be on the list,
and the
> list is okay with that sort of thing, then I will shut up. Arguing his
prices or
> parts availability justifying his methods isn't going to work. He can let
you
> know about them just as effectively by being on the list and doing it
himself.
> And then everyone will see it for what it is, another piece of business
> self-promotion. Whether we realize it or not, there is clear evidence that
all
> of us respond more favorably to, and tend to be more trusting of, third
party
> testimonials. This means we are more likely to believe something if we
hear it
> from a third, so-called disinterested party. That tendency on our parts
gives a
> shill's comments extra weight compared to a advertisement unless someone
makes a
> stink and points out that it is really just the someone promoting himself
by
> using the third party. So here I am making the stink.
>
>
>
> --
> Marc Sayer
> 82 280ZXT
> 71 510 2.5 Trans Am vintage racer
>
> /// datsun-roadsters@autox.team.net mailing list
> /// Send admin requests to majordomo@autox.team.net or go to
> /// http://www.team.net/cgi-bin/majorcool
> /// Send list postings to datsun-roadsters@autox.team.net
/// datsun-roadsters@autox.team.net mailing list
|