[TR] Triumphs Digest, Vol 16, Issue 76
JOSEPH MATO
joemato at sbcglobal.net
Sun May 14 16:55:49 MDT 2023
When I was in college I worked at a plating shop. I thought the best combination was a strong steel base with chromium plating. Since the bumper is supposed to absorb damage I think that is better than using Stainless steel which is weaker, I've got a 3 body in my back lot which has been sitting for 20 years and the bumpers are perfect. They used stainless in passengeer train construction since the 1930's, the biggest problem was that it was hard to spot weld.Joe Mato62 Wood RoadRedding, CT 06896917 232 1555
On Sunday, May 14, 2023 at 03:02:10 PM EDT, triumphs-request at autox.team.net <triumphs-request at autox.team.net> wrote:
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Stainless Steel (stagbytriumph at triumphstagclub.org)
2. Re: Skin deep stainless steel (stagbytriumph at triumphstagclub.org)
3. Re: Stainless Steel (TeriAnn J. Wakeman)
4. Re: Skin deep stainless steel (Patrick Baize)
5. Re: Stainless Steel (Patrick Baize)
6. Re: Stainless Steel (Stan Foster)
7. Re: Stainless Steel (TeriAnn J. Wakeman)
8. Re: Stainless Steel (DAVID MASSEY)
9. Re: Stainless Steel (DAVID MASSEY)
10. Re: Stainless Steel (TeriAnn J. Wakeman)
11. Re: Stainless Steel (Don Hiscock)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sat, 13 May 2023 19:08:38 -0600
From: <stagbytriumph at triumphstagclub.org>
To: "'Alex Levy'" <brserv at aol.com>, <triumphs at autox.team.net>
Subject: Re: [TR] Stainless Steel
Message-ID: <000001d98600$9f38ebd0$ddaac370$@triumphstagclub.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sorry Alex,
You may want to do some fact checking. There is no grade for "solid stainless steel".
I do not believe a stainless-steel plating exists for plating over mild steel technology exists a of
yet. Plating is electrolysis, and the mild steel will only attract specific molecules similar to
mild steel. You can copper plate mild steel because there are similar molecules, when then allows
either chromium to be plated or for triple plate, nickel plate and then chromium.
Stainless steel comes in different grades, some grades of stainless steel are indeed magnetic
depending on the amount of ferric used in the recipe.
Stainless comes in dozens of different types and chemical compositions selected for its application
and environment use. Just because it is stainless steel does not mean it is a grade or composition
that isn't magnetic or completely corrosion resistant.
Unless the specific grade of stainless is specified for the product manufacture, any grade of
stainless steel might be used, and manufacturers might advertise stainless steel and not specify
what type. Without specifying what type, you have no idea what corrosion properties to expect.
Glenn aka StagByTriumph Garage
-----Original Message-----
From: Triumphs <triumphs-bounces at autox.team.net> On Behalf Of Alex Levy
Sent: Friday, May 12, 2023 7:20 PM
To: triumphs at autox.team.net
Subject: [TR] Stainless Steel
I have come across several items that were supposed to be solid stainless steel, but they were
regular steel plated with stainless steel. The last one was my Chinese replacement cooking grill for
my propane grill.
Also, many grades of steel are mildly to strongly magnetic. Beware.
Alex
Sent from my iPhone
** triumphs at autox.team.net **
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------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Sat, 13 May 2023 19:15:07 -0600
From: <stagbytriumph at triumphstagclub.org>
To: "'TeriAnn J. Wakeman'" <tjwakeman at gmail.com>, "'Triumph List'"
<triumphs at autox.team.net>
Subject: Re: [TR] Skin deep stainless steel
Message-ID: <000501d98601$86f5df50$94e19df0$@triumphstagclub.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
TeriAnn,
Well there is no stainless steel plating onto other metal process. Stainless steel is forged in furnaces using different compositions of elements to make different grades of stainless steel, some which are magnetic.
I will guess someone did a cheap chrome plating job, or a quick polish job.
Glenn aka StagByTriumph Garage
From: Triumphs <triumphs-bounces at autox.team.net> On Behalf Of TeriAnn J. Wakeman
Sent: Friday, May 12, 2023 5:37 PM
To: Triumph List <triumphs at autox.team.net>
Subject: [TR] Skin deep stainless steel
Around 2008 or so I purchased stainless steel front & rear bumpers off or e-bay. Looked good fit OK. Last winter my TR was in an open carport with the front towards prevailing winds. And my front bumper rusted. I hit it with steel wool today and that "stainless steel" came off in flakes with a steel bumper underneath. I had no idea that you could plate steel with a thin layer of stainless. I didn't get what I paid for. Lasted fine in Arizona but couldn't handle a pacific northwest winter.
I guess the next SS bumper will need to be checked with a magnet. Anyone have a reliable source for real stainless steel TR3A bumpers?
TeriAnn
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Message: 3
Date: Sat, 13 May 2023 18:28:39 -0700
From: "TeriAnn J. Wakeman" <tjwakeman at gmail.com>
To: triumphs at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [TR] Stainless Steel
Message-ID: <e4ba1f4c-f864-baad-6327-655825fa9474 at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
On 5/13/23 6:08 PM, stagbytriumph at triumphstagclub.org wrote:
> Sorry Alex,
>
> You may want to do some fact checking. There is no grade for "solid stainless steel".
>
> I do not believe a stainless-steel plating exists for plating over mild steel technology exists a of
> yet.
"Welcome to PTT BUMPERS. We are a specialist manufacturing in stainless
steel bumpers for classic car. Our bumper are made of 100% stainless
steel grade 304 , thickness 1.5mm and hand polished. The gloss of bumper
is shiny like mirror polish and the backside of bumper are cover by 3
painted layers to protect the bumper from the bad weather and chemicals
elements."
They plate them somehow.
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Sat, 13 May 2023 21:01:43 -0500
From: Patrick Baize <pbaize at satx.rr.com>
To: triumphs at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [TR] Skin deep stainless steel
Message-ID: <4da8108e-2e14-5c9e-a442-fd510963bf0c at satx.rr.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"
Hi All
off topic, but sort of same topic. ? The new switch plates, faucets ,
sink drains etc, style is oiled bronze. ? Previously it was a nickle
type finish.? Our entire house is oiled bronze. When I re-modeled our
kitchen, I bought bronze drains.? About a month later I noticed a chip
in one of the drains.? Today they are both nickle finish , the power
coating came off.? Got to be careful of what you buy.? Nickle finish
went out of style, so the manufacturer powder coated what they had left.
Patrick
On 5/13/2023 8:15 PM, stagbytriumph at triumphstagclub.org wrote:
>
> TeriAnn,
>
> Well there is no stainless steel plating onto other metal process.?
> Stainless steel is forged in furnaces using different compositions of
> elements to make different grades of stainless steel, some which are
> magnetic.
>
> I will guess someone did a cheap chrome plating job, or a quick polish
> job.
>
> Glenn aka StagByTriumph Garage
>
> *From:* Triumphs <triumphs-bounces at autox.team.net> *On Behalf Of
> *TeriAnn J. Wakeman
> *Sent:* Friday, May 12, 2023 5:37 PM
> *To:* Triumph List <triumphs at autox.team.net>
> *Subject:* [TR] Skin deep stainless steel
>
> Around 2008 or so I purchased stainless steel front & rear bumpers off
> or e-bay. Looked good fit OK. Last winter my TR was in an open carport
> with the front towards prevailing winds. And my front bumper rusted. I
> hit it with steel wool today and that "stainless steel" came off in
> flakes with a steel bumper underneath. I had no idea that you could
> plate steel with a thin layer of stainless. I didn't get what I paid
> for. Lasted fine in Arizona but couldn't handle a pacific northwest
> winter.
>
> I guess the next SS bumper will need to be checked with a magnet.
> Anyone have a reliable source for real stainless steel TR3A bumpers?
>
> TeriAnn
>
>
> **triumphs at autox.team.net **
>
> Donate:http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive:http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs http://www.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/pbaize@satx.rr.com
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Message: 5
Date: Sat, 13 May 2023 21:37:20 -0500
From: Patrick Baize <pbaize at satx.rr.com>
To: triumphs at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [TR] Stainless Steel
Message-ID: <5a3280d7-92aa-bf4b-da58-56a35acfa971 at satx.rr.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
ask what country of manufacture
On 5/13/2023 8:28 PM, TeriAnn J. Wakeman wrote:
> On 5/13/23 6:08 PM, stagbytriumph at triumphstagclub.org wrote:
>> Sorry Alex,
>>
>> You may want to do some fact checking.? There is no grade for "solid
>> stainless steel".
>>
>> I do not believe a stainless-steel plating exists for plating over
>> mild steel technology exists a of
>> yet.
>
> "Welcome to PTT BUMPERS. We are a specialist manufacturing in
> stainless steel bumpers for classic car. Our bumper are made of 100%
> stainless steel grade 304 , thickness 1.5mm and hand polished. The
> gloss of bumper is shiny like mirror polish and the backside of bumper
> are cover by 3 painted layers to protect the bumper from the bad
> weather and chemicals elements."
>
> They plate them somehow.
>
> ** triumphs at autox.team.net **
>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs
> http://www.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/pbaize@satx.rr.com
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------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Sun, 14 May 2023 02:39:09 +0000
From: Stan Foster <stan at redtr6.com>
To: "TeriAnn J. Wakeman" <tjwakeman at gmail.com>,
"triumphs at autox.team.net" <triumphs at autox.team.net>
Subject: Re: [TR] Stainless Steel
Message-ID:
<MN2PR05MB657582CCF10FBBC88B8815ECFE7B9 at MN2PR05MB6575.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
ChatGPT confirms:
Yes, it is possible to plate steel with stainless steel. This process is known as electroplating or galvanization and involves depositing a thin layer of stainless steel onto the surface of the steel through an electrolytic process.
In this process, the steel is first cleaned and then placed in an electrolytic bath with a solution containing the ions of the stainless steel. An electric current is then passed through the solution, causing the ions to be deposited onto the surface of the steel.
The resulting plated steel will have the corrosion-resistant properties of stainless steel, which can be beneficial for applications where the steel will be exposed to harsh environments or corrosive substances.
-----Original Message-----
From: Triumphs <triumphs-bounces at autox.team.net> On Behalf Of TeriAnn J. Wakeman
Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2023 9:29 PM
To: triumphs at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [TR] Stainless Steel
On 5/13/23 6:08 PM, stagbytriumph at triumphstagclub.org wrote:
> Sorry Alex,
>
> You may want to do some fact checking. There is no grade for "solid stainless steel".
>
> I do not believe a stainless-steel plating exists for plating over
> mild steel technology exists a of yet.
"Welcome to PTT BUMPERS. We are a specialist manufacturing in stainless steel bumpers for classic car. Our bumper are made of 100% stainless steel grade 304 , thickness 1.5mm and hand polished. The gloss of bumper is shiny like mirror polish and the backside of bumper are cover by 3 painted layers to protect the bumper from the bad weather and chemicals elements."
They plate them somehow.
** triumphs at autox.team.net **
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs http://www.team.net/archive
Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/stan@redtr6.com
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Sat, 13 May 2023 21:05:58 -0700
From: "TeriAnn J. Wakeman" <tjwakeman at gmail.com>
To: triumphs at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [TR] Stainless Steel
Message-ID: <8ba60579-625c-feea-5126-a34e888c6fa1 at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"
On 5/13/23 7:37 PM, Patrick Baize wrote:
> ask what country of manufacture
For the PTT stainless coated bumper, Vietnam.
>
> On 5/13/2023 8:28 PM, TeriAnn J. Wakeman wrote:
>> On 5/13/23 6:08 PM, stagbytriumph at triumphstagclub.org wrote:
>>> Sorry Alex,
>>>
>>> You may want to do some fact checking.? There is no grade for "solid
>>> stainless steel".
>>>
>>> I do not believe a stainless-steel plating exists for plating over
>>> mild steel technology exists a of
>>> yet.
>>
>> "Welcome to PTT BUMPERS. We are a specialist manufacturing in
>> stainless steel bumpers for classic car. Our bumper are made of 100%
>> stainless steel grade 304 , thickness 1.5mm and hand polished. The
>> gloss of bumper is shiny like mirror polish and the backside of
>> bumper are cover by 3 painted layers to protect the bumper from the
>> bad weather and chemicals elements."
>>
>> They plate them somehow.
>>
>> ** triumphs at autox.team.net **
>>
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs
>> http://www.team.net/archive
>>
>> Unsubscribe/Manage:
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/pbaize@satx.rr.com
>
--
Book - The Essential Guide to Overland Travel in the United States and
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2 years to write and 38 years of travel and camping to learn what to write
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Message: 8
Date: Sun, 14 May 2023 12:24:21 +0000 (UTC)
From: DAVID MASSEY <dave1massey at cs.com>
To: "stagbytriumph at triumphstagclub.org"
<stagbytriumph at triumphstagclub.org>, "brserv at aol.com"
<brserv at aol.com>, "triumphs at autox.team.net" <triumphs at autox.team.net>
Subject: Re: [TR] Stainless Steel
Message-ID: <20407903.757593.1684067061088 at mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
McMaster-Carr has a nice concise overview primer on various materials, including Stainless Steel.
https://www.mcmaster.com/products/about-stainless-steel/
Dave
-----Original Message-----
From: stagbytriumph at triumphstagclub.org
To: 'Alex Levy' <brserv at aol.com>; triumphs at autox.team.net
Sent: Sat, May 13, 2023 8:08 pm
Subject: Re: [TR] Stainless Steel
Sorry Alex,
You may want to do some fact checking.? There is no grade for "solid stainless steel".
I do not believe a stainless-steel plating exists for plating over mild steel technology exists a of
yet.? Plating is electrolysis, and the mild steel will only attract specific molecules similar to
mild steel.? You can copper plate mild steel because there are similar molecules, when then allows
either chromium to be plated or for triple plate, nickel plate and then chromium.
Stainless steel comes in different grades, some grades of stainless steel are indeed magnetic
depending on the amount of ferric used in the recipe.?
Stainless comes in dozens of different types and chemical compositions selected for its application
and environment use.? Just because it is stainless steel does not mean it is a grade or composition
that isn't magnetic or completely corrosion resistant.
Unless the specific grade of stainless is specified for the product manufacture, any grade of
stainless steel might be used, and manufacturers might advertise stainless steel and not specify
what type.? Without specifying what type, you have no idea what corrosion properties to expect.
Glenn aka StagByTriumph Garage
-----Original Message-----
From: Triumphs <triumphs-bounces at autox.team.net> On Behalf Of Alex Levy
Sent: Friday, May 12, 2023 7:20 PM
To: triumphs at autox.team.net
Subject: [TR] Stainless Steel
I have come across several items that were supposed to be solid stainless steel, but they were
regular steel plated with stainless steel. The last one was my Chinese replacement cooking grill for
my propane grill.
Also, many grades of steel are mildly to strongly magnetic. Beware.
Alex
Sent from my iPhone
** triumphs at autox.team.net **
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Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs? http://www.team.net/archive
Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/stagbytriumph@triumphstagclub.org
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Message: 9
Date: Sun, 14 May 2023 12:35:25 +0000 (UTC)
From: DAVID MASSEY <dave1massey at cs.com>
To: "tjwakeman at gmail.com" <tjwakeman at gmail.com>,
"triumphs at autox.team.net" <triumphs at autox.team.net>
Subject: Re: [TR] Stainless Steel
Message-ID: <1905437117.1969833.1684067725142 at mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
They make stainless pots and pans with aluminum inserts.? These are forged together using various processes.? It is possible that they are forging flat plates of stainless and mild steel and then punching and forming bumpers out of that sandwich.? Stainless steel has a reputation of being difficult to machine and this may explain why they would go to the trouble of forging a thin layer or stainless on a more easily machinable soft steel.
On the other hand, they say "100% stainless steel grade 304 , thickness 1.5mm"?? If that were the case why paint the inside with three coats of paint?? Me thinks they are lying.
Dave
-----Original Message-----
From: TeriAnn J. Wakeman <tjwakeman at gmail.com>
To: triumphs at autox.team.net
Sent: Sat, May 13, 2023 8:28 pm
Subject: Re: [TR] Stainless Steel
On 5/13/23 6:08 PM, stagbytriumph at triumphstagclub.org wrote:
> Sorry Alex,
>
> You may want to do some fact checking.? There is no grade for "solid stainless steel".
>
> I do not believe a stainless-steel plating exists for plating over mild steel technology exists a of
> yet.
"Welcome to PTT BUMPERS. We are a specialist manufacturing in stainless
steel bumpers for classic car. Our bumper are made of 100% stainless
steel grade 304 , thickness 1.5mm and hand polished. The gloss of bumper
is shiny like mirror polish and the backside of bumper are cover by 3
painted layers to protect the bumper from the bad weather and chemicals
elements."
They plate them somehow.
** triumphs at autox.team.net **
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs? http://www.team.net/archive
Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/dave1massey@cs.com
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Message: 10
Date: Sun, 14 May 2023 06:17:12 -0700
From: "TeriAnn J. Wakeman" <tjwakeman at gmail.com>
To: DAVID MASSEY <dave1massey at cs.com>, "triumphs at autox.team.net"
<triumphs at autox.team.net>
Subject: Re: [TR] Stainless Steel
Message-ID: <c7256e6d-585d-3dc5-2973-f8d7d427eddb at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"
What is flaking off my bumper as I go over the rust with steel wool is
about the same thickness as chrome plating.? think the question to ask a
manufacturer is if the bumper is 100% stainless steel or is it plated on
the front. And to look at the back to see if it is painted or unpolished
steel.
TeriAnn
On 5/14/23 5:35 AM, DAVID MASSEY wrote:
> They make stainless pots and pans with aluminum inserts.? These are
> forged together using various processes.? It is possible that they are
> forging flat plates of stainless and mild steel and then punching and
> forming bumpers out of that sandwich.? Stainless steel has a
> reputation of being difficult to machine and this may explain why they
> would go to the trouble of forging a thin layer or stainless on a more
> easily machinable soft steel.
>
> On the other hand, they say "100% stainless steel grade 304 ,
> thickness 1.5mm"?? If that were the case why paint the inside with
> three coats of paint?? Me thinks they are lying.
>
> Dave
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TeriAnn J. Wakeman <tjwakeman at gmail.com>
> To: triumphs at autox.team.net
> Sent: Sat, May 13, 2023 8:28 pm
> Subject: Re: [TR] Stainless Steel
>
> On 5/13/23 6:08 PM, stagbytriumph at triumphstagclub.org wrote:
> > Sorry Alex,
> >
> > You may want to do some fact checking.? There is no grade for "solid
> stainless steel".
> >
> > I do not believe a stainless-steel plating exists for plating over
> mild steel technology exists a of
> > yet.
>
> "Welcome to PTT BUMPERS. We are a specialist manufacturing in stainless
> steel bumpers for classic car. Our bumper are made of 100% stainless
> steel grade 304 , thickness 1.5mm and hand polished. The gloss of bumper
> is shiny like mirror polish and the backside of bumper are cover by 3
> painted layers to protect the bumper from the bad weather and chemicals
> elements."
>
> They plate them somehow.
>
>
> ** triumphs at autox.team.net **
>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs
> http://www.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/dave1massey@cs.com
--
Book - The Essential Guide to Overland Travel in the United States and
Canada <http://overlandtravel.us>
2 years to write and 38 years of travel and camping to learn what to write
*Because the world beckons and life waits for no one*
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Message: 11
Date: Sun, 14 May 2023 09:04:04 -0500
From: Don Hiscock <don.hiscock at gmail.com>
To: "TeriAnn J. Wakeman" <tjwakeman at gmail.com>
Cc: DAVID MASSEY <dave1massey at cs.com>, "triumphs at autox.team.net"
<triumphs at autox.team.net>
Subject: Re: [TR] Stainless Steel
Message-ID:
<CAPK7CFAALbgoZmf5-YL=MhH89iEKmCCdvamveDeSuOzhzX8-uQ at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Years ago (perhaps still) there was some video on YouTube showing one of
the Vietnamese workshops making stainless steel bumpers. It was a bunch of
Geppettos banging them out by hand in a courtyard more than a factory with
machine tooling.
My guess for why the back side is heavily painted is to hide the
handworking marks that are polished out of the front side.
TeriAnn, your 2008 bumpers sound like chrome plated carbon steel, not
polished stainless. The idea of some amalgam of stainless and carbon
steels to save money doesn't square with the cottage/craft industry that
makes these, AFAIK.
On Sun, May 14, 2023 at 8:50?AM TeriAnn J. Wakeman <tjwakeman at gmail.com>
wrote:
> What is flaking off my bumper as I go over the rust with steel wool is
> about the same thickness as chrome plating. think the question to ask a
> manufacturer is if the bumper is 100% stainless steel or is it plated on
> the front. And to look at the back to see if it is painted or unpolished
> steel.
>
> TeriAnn
>
> On 5/14/23 5:35 AM, DAVID MASSEY wrote:
>
> They make stainless pots and pans with aluminum inserts. These are forged
> together using various processes. It is possible that they are forging
> flat plates of stainless and mild steel and then punching and forming
> bumpers out of that sandwich. Stainless steel has a reputation of being
> difficult to machine and this may explain why they would go to the trouble
> of forging a thin layer or stainless on a more easily machinable soft steel.
>
> On the other hand, they say "100% stainless steel grade 304 , thickness
> 1.5mm" If that were the case why paint the inside with three coats of
> paint? Me thinks they are lying.
>
> Dave
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TeriAnn J. Wakeman <tjwakeman at gmail.com> <tjwakeman at gmail.com>
> To: triumphs at autox.team.net
> Sent: Sat, May 13, 2023 8:28 pm
> Subject: Re: [TR] Stainless Steel
>
> On 5/13/23 6:08 PM, stagbytriumph at triumphstagclub.org wrote:
> > Sorry Alex,
> >
> > You may want to do some fact checking. There is no grade for "solid
> stainless steel".
> >
> > I do not believe a stainless-steel plating exists for plating over mild
> steel technology exists a of
> > yet.
>
> "Welcome to PTT BUMPERS. We are a specialist manufacturing in stainless
> steel bumpers for classic car. Our bumper are made of 100% stainless
> steel grade 304 , thickness 1.5mm and hand polished. The gloss of bumper
> is shiny like mirror polish and the backside of bumper are cover by 3
> painted layers to protect the bumper from the bad weather and chemicals
> elements."
>
> They plate them somehow.
>
>
> ** triumphs at autox.team.net **
>
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>
>
> --
>
> Book - The Essential Guide to Overland Travel in the United States and
> Canada <http://overlandtravel.us>
> 2 years to write and 38 years of travel and camping to learn what to write
>
> *Because the world beckons and life waits for no one*
> ** triumphs at autox.team.net **
>
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