[TR] Triumphs Digest, Vol 12, Issue 123

Sat Jun 8 08:11:19 MDT 2019

I just go to NY and buy the nonalcohol gas they have for sale for my small engine stuff. Would work here, don't know availability elsewhere. Joe
Joe Mato62 Wood RoadRedding, CT 06896917 232 1555 

    On Friday, June 7, 2019, 2:01:18 PM EDT, triumphs-request at autox.team.net <triumphs-request at autox.team.net> wrote:  

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Today's Topics:

  1. U.S. EPA Finalizes Rulemaking to Permit Year-Round Sales of
      E15 Gasoline (Pete Arakelian)
  2. Re: U.S. EPA Finalizes Rulemaking to Permit Year-Round Sales
      of E15 Gasoline (Randall)
  3. Re: U.S. EPA Finalizes Rulemaking to Permit Year-Round Sales
      of E15 Gasoline (Greg Lemon)
  4. Re: U.S. EPA Finalizes Rulemaking to Permit Year-Round Sales
      of E15 Gasoline (Randall)
  5. Re: U.S. EPA Finalizes Rulemaking to Permit Year-Round Sales
      of E15 Gasoline (Michael Porter)
  6. Re: U.S. EPA Finalizes Rulemaking to Permit Year-Round Sales
      of E15 Gasoline (Randall)
  7. Re: U.S. EPA Finalizes Rulemaking to Permit Year-Round Sales
      of E15 Gasoline (Michael Porter)
  8. Re: U.S. EPA Finalizes Rulemaking to Permit Year-Round Sales
      of E15 Gasoline (DAVID MASSEY)
  9. Re: U.S. EPA Finalizes Rulemaking to Permit Year-Round Sales
      of E15 Gasoline (Randall)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2019 20:04:08 +0000
From: Pete Arakelian <Arakelianp at mossmotors.com>
To: "'triumphs at autox.team.net'" <triumphs at autox.team.net>
Subject: [TR] U.S. EPA Finalizes Rulemaking to Permit Year-Round Sales
    of E15 Gasoline
Message-ID:
    <CO2PR05MB2423D14594266C3A6DC50715A9170 at CO2PR05MB2423.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

https://www.sema.org/sema-enews/2019/23/us-epa-finalizes-rulemaking-to-permit-year-round-sales-of-e15-gasoline?utm_source=ET&utm_medium=email&utm_content=251663&utm_campaign=eNews3.5

EPA has authorized year round sale of E15.  What is that going to do to our cars?

Peter Arakelian - '71 TR6
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Message: 2
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2019 13:05:47 -0700
From: "Randall" <TR3driver at ca.rr.com>
To: "'Pete Arakelian'" <Arakelianp at mossmotors.com>,
    <triumphs at autox.team.net>
Subject: Re: [TR] U.S. EPA Finalizes Rulemaking to Permit Year-Round
    Sales of E15 Gasoline
Message-ID: <02CFBDF94A114C64BBA34ABFF7FB0EFB at RYPC>
Content-Type: text/plain;    charset="us-ascii"

> EPA has authorized year round sale of E15.  What is that 
> going to do to our cars?

Not much, especially if you don't put it in the tank.

Seems like a sales opportunity to me, though.  Find (or have made) some carb
needles that are better calibrated to E15 and the world will beat a path to
your door.

-- Randall 
56 TR3 TS13571L once and future daily driver
71 Stag LE1473 - awaiting engine rebuild
71-2-3 Stag - awaiting gearbox rebuild 

------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2019 22:24:52 +0200
From: Greg Lemon <grglmn at gmail.com>
To: Randall <TR3driver at ca.rr.com>
Cc: Pete Arakelian <Arakelianp at mossmotors.com>,
    triumphs at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [TR] U.S. EPA Finalizes Rulemaking to Permit Year-Round
    Sales of E15 Gasoline
Message-ID:
    <CAFtw3aaZ-FtZkreV37rp-JkLs5fRbtZBsiQmm9PpP2H0PjFpiQ at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

I will get the Dremel out and see what I can come up with, just take a
little of the needle to allow more fual and compensate for lower energy
content, right??  Of course may write up will say "digitally (read
"fingers") developed and manufactured to the finest tolerances by Craftsmen
with a lifetime of experience in British engineering (read "fiddling about
with MGs and Triumphs and stuff until they start and idle reasonably
reliable") these special needles will improve the performance of your
Triumph over a broad range of....."

Regards,

Greg Lemon
TR250

On Thu, Jun 6, 2019, 10:10 PM Randall <TR3driver at ca.rr.com> wrote:

>
> > EPA has authorized year round sale of E15.  What is that
> > going to do to our cars?
>
> Not much, especially if you don't put it in the tank.
>
> Seems like a sales opportunity to me, though.  Find (or have made) some
> carb
> needles that are better calibrated to E15 and the world will beat a path to
> your door.
>
> -- Randall
> 56 TR3 TS13571L once and future daily driver
> 71 Stag LE1473 - awaiting engine rebuild
> 71-2-3 Stag - awaiting gearbox rebuild
>
> ** triumphs at autox.team.net **
>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
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Message: 4
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2019 13:57:42 -0700
From: "Randall" <TR3driver at ca.rr.com>
To: "'Greg Lemon'" <grglmn at gmail.com>
Cc: <triumphs at autox.team.net>, "'Pete Arakelian'"
    <Arakelianp at mossmotors.com>
Subject: Re: [TR] U.S. EPA Finalizes Rulemaking to Permit Year-Round
    Sales of E15 Gasoline
Message-ID: <A977DEC0BB084269B41EE85B61224458 at RYPC>
Content-Type: text/plain;    charset="us-ascii"

Perhaps I should mention, there is nothing about changing the E15 warning
label, which says to only use E15 in 2001 and newer vehicles.  Since the
last Triumph was some 20 years before that, even the EPA does not recommend
using it in Triumphs.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/72/EPA_E15_warning_label.jp
g

Personally, I think having more choice is a Good Thing, even if the choices
are not things I want to choose.  AFAIK, the state of California does not
allow E15 here (yet), but I've pulled up to lots of gas pumps in other parts
of the country where the button for E15 is right next to the one for E85.
Didn't hurt me or my car a bit! (Since I didn't push either one of them.)

> I will get the Dremel out and see what I can come up with, 
> just take a little of the needle to allow more fual and 
> compensate for lower energy content, right??  

Those brass needles are really soft; I would suggest a fine tooth file and a
light touch rather than a Dremel.  I haven't worked out how big the flat
should be, but it won't take much.  You're only looking for something like
5% more fuel (or maybe 6%, depending on whose numbers you believe).

Again assuming you want to run E15 in the first place.

-- Randall

------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2019 15:58:38 -0600
From: Michael Porter <mdporter at dfn.com>
To: Randall <TR3driver at ca.rr.com>, 'Greg Lemon' <grglmn at gmail.com>
Cc: triumphs at autox.team.net, 'Pete Arakelian'
    <Arakelianp at mossmotors.com>
Subject: Re: [TR] U.S. EPA Finalizes Rulemaking to Permit Year-Round
    Sales of E15 Gasoline
Message-ID: <b30a33bc-b354-19df-058d-3f4099a0420c at dfn.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed

On 6/6/2019 2:57 PM, Randall wrote:
>
> Those brass needles are really soft; I would suggest a fine tooth file and a
> light touch rather than a Dremel.  I haven't worked out how big the flat
> should be, but it won't take much.  You're only looking for something like
> 5% more fuel (or maybe 6%, depending on whose numbers you believe).
>
> Again assuming you want to run E15 in the first place.
>
The calculation is .85 x 115.5 + .15 x 76.0/115.5 = 0.94874, nominally - 
5.125%.? But, there are other considerations.? The latent heat of 
evaporation of alcohol is pretty high, so the flame front will propagate 
a bit more slowly, which means the advance can be raised slightly.? And, 
since the octane rating for ethanol is 110, the compression ratio can be 
raised slightly with no ill effect.? Both of those effects translate to 
slightly better mileage, or at least mitigate the loss in fuel value.? 
The octane increase is not insubstantial.? If the gasoline in the blend 
is 87 octane, the total blend with 15% ethanol is 90.5.

Anyone operating at altitudes well above sea level will probably see a 
slight improvement in performance, because of an oxygen atom in the 
alcohol molecule, presuming that all else is right with the engine 
(i.e., mixture correct and timing adjusted for altitude).

The bugaboo, I suppose, is that some people may still have rubber hoses 
installed that aren't alcohol-proof, and that's something that would 
have to be corrected.? Buna-n (nitrile) will work, but with shorter 
life, but neoprene or SBR (styrene-butadiene rubber) would have good 
resistance to alcohol and are readily available. Anyone contemplating 
replacement of rubber hoses with braided stainless steel w/Teflon liners 
should avoid that.? Nylon or XLPE liners are fine.

But, in general, go easy on needle mods.? For SUs and Strombergs, simple 
mixture enrichment and a little fiddling with the advance may get one 
most of the way there.? Plug cuts will tell the tale.

Cheers.

-- 

Michael Porter
Roswell, NM

Never let anyone drive you crazy when you know it's within walking distance....

------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2019 17:07:03 -0700
From: "Randall" <TR3driver at ca.rr.com>
Cc: <triumphs at autox.team.net>
Subject: Re: [TR] U.S. EPA Finalizes Rulemaking to Permit Year-Round
    Sales of E15 Gasoline
Message-ID: <ECA4BD187679404DAD309148AF719B16 at RYPC>
Content-Type: text/plain;    charset="iso-8859-1"

> ? If the gasoline in the blend is 87 octane, 
> the total blend with 15% ethanol is 90.5.

Seems like a big IF to me.  More likely, they'll use a lower (cheaper) cut
of gasoline, so the overall octane will remain much the same.  The E15 pumps
I've seen are still posted at around 87 octane.

-- Randall

------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2019 18:19:12 -0600
From: Michael Porter <mdporter at dfn.com>
To: Randall <TR3driver at ca.rr.com>
Cc: triumphs at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [TR] U.S. EPA Finalizes Rulemaking to Permit Year-Round
    Sales of E15 Gasoline
Message-ID: <1dd9d772-3b4f-dc84-ad0a-b8cbb7864141 at dfn.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed

On 6/6/2019 6:07 PM, Randall wrote:
>>  ? If the gasoline in the blend is 87 octane,
>> the total blend with 15% ethanol is 90.5.
> Seems like a big IF to me.  More likely, they'll use a lower (cheaper) cut
> of gasoline, so the overall octane will remain much the same.  The E15 pumps
> I've seen are still posted at around 87 octane.
>
Very possible.? I don't think we have any around here (although there 
are a few around with "ethanol added," probably at rates of 8-10%, and, 
yeah, those are not uniformly rated at higher octane), so I can only 
guess at E15.

Cheers.

-- 

Michael Porter
Roswell, NM

Never let anyone drive you crazy when you know it's within walking distance....

------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2019 01:15:10 +0000 (UTC)
From: DAVID MASSEY <dave1massey at cs.com>
To: mdporter at dfn.com, TR3driver at ca.rr.com, grglmn at gmail.com
Cc: triumphs at autox.team.net, Arakelianp at mossmotors.com
Subject: Re: [TR] U.S. EPA Finalizes Rulemaking to Permit Year-Round
    Sales of E15 Gasoline
Message-ID: <1360013097.13274.1559870110702 at mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

 I would have thought you can get +\- 5% changes just in the adjustments available.
The other consideration is what does the alcohol do the the rubber parts in the fuel system.? Here in the Midwest we have had 5% alcohol in our gas for decades.? Both my cars suffered fuel pump failures when the pump diaphragm? went all stiff and cardboardy on me.? I fitted an electric pump to the TR6 and a rebuild kit in the TR3 is still working just fine.? Replacing all the fuel hoses is a good idea, too.

Dave 

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Porter <mdporter at dfn.com>
To: Randall <TR3driver at ca.rr.com>; 'Greg Lemon' <grglmn at gmail.com>
Cc: triumphs <triumphs at autox.team.net>; 'Pete Arakelian' <Arakelianp at mossmotors.com>
Sent: Thu, Jun 6, 2019 4:59 pm
Subject: Re: [TR] U.S. EPA Finalizes Rulemaking to Permit Year-Round Sales of E15 Gasoline

On 6/6/2019 2:57 PM, Randall wrote:
>
> Those brass needles are really soft; I would suggest a fine tooth file and a
> light touch rather than a Dremel.? I haven't worked out how big the flat
> should be, but it won't take much.? You're only looking for something like
> 5% more fuel (or maybe 6%, depending on whose numbers you believe).
>
> Again assuming you want to run E15 in the first place.
>
The calculation is .85 x 115.5 + .15 x 76.0/115.5 = 0.94874, nominally - 
5.125%.? But, there are other considerations.? The latent heat of 
evaporation of alcohol is pretty high, so the flame front will propagate 
a bit more slowly, which means the advance can be raised slightly.? And, 
since the octane rating for ethanol is 110, the compression ratio can be 
raised slightly with no ill effect.? Both of those effects translate to 
slightly better mileage, or at least mitigate the loss in fuel value.? 
The octane increase is not insubstantial.? If the gasoline in the blend 
is 87 octane, the total blend with 15% ethanol is 90.5.

Anyone operating at altitudes well above sea level will probably see a 
slight improvement in performance, because of an oxygen atom in the 
alcohol molecule, presuming that all else is right with the engine 
(i.e., mixture correct and timing adjusted for altitude).

The bugaboo, I suppose, is that some people may still have rubber hoses 
installed that aren't alcohol-proof, and that's something that would 
have to be corrected.? Buna-n (nitrile) will work, but with shorter 
life, but neoprene or SBR (styrene-butadiene rubber) would have good 
resistance to alcohol and are readily available. Anyone contemplating 
replacement of rubber hoses with braided stainless steel w/Teflon liners 
should avoid that.? Nylon or XLPE liners are fine.

But, in general, go easy on needle mods.? For SUs and Strombergs, simple 
mixture enrichment and a little fiddling with the advance may get one 
most of the way there.? Plug cuts will tell the tale.

Cheers.

-- 

Michael Porter
Roswell, NM

Never let anyone drive you crazy when you know it's within walking distance....

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Message: 9
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2019 20:10:33 -0700
From: "Randall" <TR3driver at ca.rr.com>
Cc: <triumphs at autox.team.net>
Subject: Re: [TR] U.S. EPA Finalizes Rulemaking to Permit Year-Round
    Sales of E15 Gasoline
Message-ID: <A12FA1F5183E45BBBBABF7B7B47C438E at RYPC>
Content-Type: text/plain;    charset="us-ascii"

> I would have thought you can get +\- 5% changes just in the 
> adjustments available.

A stock TR250 lacks mixture adjustment at all; the later TR6 carbs have only
a very limited range of adjustment.  And it mostly affects idle, the effect
on open throttle is even less.

> The other consideration is what does the alcohol do the the 
> rubber parts in the fuel system. 

Agreed, but E15 isn't going to be any worse in that respect than E10; which
is already available everywhere, year round.

> Replacing all the fuel hoses is a good idea, too.

Good idea anyway, if they haven't been done in the past decade or two.  The
original type hoses are only good for 10-20 years, even without ethanol in
the fuel.

But anything sold in the US as "fuel line" in the past 20 years or so should
be ethanol-resistant.

-- Randall

------------------------------

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End of Triumphs Digest, Vol 12, Issue 123
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