[TR] Motor Marking

Fri Oct 27 03:26:05 MDT 2017

Taking it one stage further, there are two other designations – LE and HE. LE was for markets where fuel quality was so bad the cars had a low compression head, different camshaft and also a different dizzy. Compression ratio was usually 7:1. E engines (8.0 to 8.3:1 CR) were for markets where fuel quality was between 88 and 96 octane research method. HE was for markets where fuel was 97RM octane and higher. These octane values are different for North America and I’m sure there are people out there to provide equivalent US values.

Jonmac 

From: Triumphs [mailto:triumphs-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of wbeech
Sent: 26 October 2017 20:57
To: 'Robert Jones' <rjones at wfeca.net>
Cc: 'Triumph' <triumphs at autox.team.net>
Subject: Re: [TR] Motor Marking

Robert,

Actually, a Morgan TR3 engine number should end in “ME”, TR2-4 engines carry this suffix.  Triumph engines carry the “E” to designate the number as an engine number, for Morgan they squeeze an “M” in between the last digit and the “E”.  According to the documentation from the Morgan Spares parts manual.

Bill

From: Robert Jones [mailto:rjones at wfeca.net] 
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2017 11:27 AM
To: John Macartney <john.macartney at ukpips.org.uk <mailto:john.macartney at ukpips.org.uk> >
Cc: wbeech <wbeech at flash.net <mailto:wbeech at flash.net> >; Triumph <triumphs at autox.team.net <mailto:triumphs at autox.team.net> >
Subject: Re: [TR] Motor Marking

Just a further comment.  My Plus 4  left the Malvern factory on March 22, 1961 with TR3 engine 81957E.  It is my understanding the E was added indicating it was going to Morgan.  Also it appears the original block and diff colors were red, rather than black as I believe Triumphs were.  I have seen the red on other Morgans and mine still wears the original red on the Diff.

Bob Jones

On Oct 26, 2017, at 6:42 AM, John Macartney <john.macartney at ukpips.org.uk <mailto:john.macartney at ukpips.org.uk> > wrote:

Hi, Bill

How nice to hear from you and it’s nice to know you’ve got hold of a ‘Moggie’. That’s what we call them over here – when we’re being polite😊

Standard-Triumph build processes were a true multiplicity of different blobs of paint, chinagraph stick marks and what have you that I doubt if anyone ever recorded them. It’s sad my Dad is no longer alive because in his role of Chief Inspector and Quality Manager, he was aware of many of these variances, why they were put there in the first place and their overall significance. Very often, a different mark on an engine or major component was peculiar to a department or sub-section where the item was made and it probably bore little or no reference to the whole assembly process. That said, the people who worked in those places knew what the mark meant and how it affected their job in terms of building the finished car. As examples, the large Triumph saloons had different dabs of colour paint on their differentials to highlight the axle ratio. Then there were other marks on other components to signify:

1.	high or low compression cylinder heads
2.	Different camshafts had different colours on timing chain sprockets to indicate different camshafts for different markets
3.	Road springs and shock absorbers had marks to identify spring rates for heavy duty suspensions in tropical markets.

All this and lots more created a car that was unique to a market condition or geographic area and it’s important to remember that Standard-Triumph had twelve different assembly factories around the world so there was plenty of scope to use colours and marks that affected components being packed for export that had no other meaning except for the destination market and the people who worked in those plants.

As far as your ‘Moggie’ goes, it’s quite likely that engine may have been identified with a label attached to a piece of wire that was tied to a part of the engine to indicate the car was going to Morgan to power a car and not another manufacturer to run a pump or a forklift truck.

This whole question puzzles thousands of enthusiasts because many of them often fail to appreciate the massive number of variations found in any one model that was territorial dependent. As a further example, I’ve seen posts on the Triumph list over the years talking about tropical fans which says, “the factory parts book says…” and that in itself is of little use because it depends on the parts book being referred to. Standard-Triumph didn’t have just one parts book. There were probably considerably more than fifty on the go at any one time and when I was employed by the company, I know there were at least 12 different ones for the Herald alone. Those were further sub-divided into different languages because we didn’t just sell in North America. Sure, North America took about 25% of the global sports car output and about 12% of total output for all models which made it a major market – but it was by no means the only major market and the people who worked in Technical Publications faced a continuous and massive task in keeping up to speed on technical changes across the whole model range for the world as we know it.

My best guess is the engines sold to Morgan would have mostly been UK domestic specification but that aside, Morgan would have certainly provided Standard-Triumph with regular forecasts of unit offtake for its own export business and this is where another raft of paint blobs and chinagraph marks would have come into play. All this probably doesn’t answer your question and it’s important to remember as well that as its now so many years since the company was in operation, lots of the assemblies may have been adapted / repainted / cannibalised from other components and a lot more as well.

Of one thing we can be sure. The cars and their constituent parts were never designed or envisaged in lasting as long as they have, so that in itself is something of a miracle – and also anyone’s guess as to what happened to that component or assembly when it first saw the light of day😊

Have you got all your woodworking tools sharpened and at the ready for the Morgan?

Cheers, John

From: wbeech [ <mailto:wbeech at flash.net> mailto:wbeech at flash.net] 
Sent: 25 October 2017 20:06
To: 'John Macartney' < <mailto:john.macartney at ukpips.org.uk> john.macartney at ukpips.org.uk>
Subject: Motor Marking

Hi John,

I hope you and yours are doing well.   I just bought a project car, non-TR, and have a question you might know the answer to.

I remember the email threads that explained the orange “TR3” paint markings on the engine blocks as having come through a sorting process at the T-S factory.  What was not discussed, no need to, is were the other blocks so marked as well?  This project is a 1954 Morgan +4 “Interim” and while it originally came with the Standard Vanguard 2088 motor, the 1991 TR2 was an option.   The project has no motor in it at the present just a loose TR3A  engine coming with it that will not fit without some re-work.  So, would this block had received some sort of orange marker at the factory? 

Yours truly,

Bill Beecher

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