[TR] Triumphs Digest, Vol 10, Issue 218
JOSEPH MATO
joemato at sbcglobal.net
Mon Aug 21 14:29:49 MDT 2017
I had the same thing happen when the splines stripped out. Grabbed a spare hub from my parts car and it was OK. I'm just now getting the repaired fenderinstalled. Joe Mato
From: "triumphs-request at autox.team.net" <triumphs-request at autox.team.net>
To: triumphs at autox.team.net
Sent: Monday, August 21, 2017 3:29 PM
Subject: Triumphs Digest, Vol 10, Issue 218
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Fuel pump problems (hdrider570 at att.net)
2. Fwd: Valve noise? (Peter Arakelian)
3. Re: Fuel pump problems (John Macartney)
4. Re: Fuel pump problems (Dave)
5. Re: Fuel pump problems (Dave)
6. Re: Fwd: Valve noise? (Dave)
7. Re: Fwd: Valve noise? (Peter Arakelian)
8. Re: Fwd: Valve noise? (Dave)
9. TR2/3 wire wheel adapters - frightening experience.
(Angelo Graham)
10. Re: Fuel pump problems (dave)
11. Re: Fuel pump problems (Randall)
12. Re: TR2/3 wire wheel adapters - frightening experience.
(Frank Fisher)
13. Re: TR2/3 wire wheel adapters - frightening experience. (Randall)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2017 12:33:19 -0700
From: "hdrider570 at att.net" <hdrider570 at att.net>
To: triumphs at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [TR] Fuel pump problems
Message-ID: <5999E3FF.8080301 at att.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
I had a similar problem with a TR6 though it was intermittent. It turned
out that a small stone had entered the fuel tank that was small enough
to exit the tank, pass through the first section of rubber hose under
the boot but just large enough to wedge in to the opening of the first
steel fuel line going forward. It would rock and intermittently
partially block the fuel flow. Fortunately it let enough fuel through to
travel at about 45 MPH on flat ground.
Edward Hamer
Petaluma CA
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2017 19:40:15 +0000
From: Peter Arakelian <peterara at msn.com>
To: "triumphs at autox.team.net" <triumphs at autox.team.net>
Subject: [TR] Fwd: Valve noise?
Message-ID:
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From: Peter Arakelian
Sent: Saturday, August 19, 8:20 AM
Subject: Valve noise?
To: triumphs-request at autox.team.net
>From the right rear of the cylinder head, I am getting a loud clatter. Not like rocker arm tapping on valve, much louder. Goes with rpm's. Whatcha think? Please respond to me directly, too, I am on digest, would like to know without the wait. Thanx in advance.
Peter Arakelian - 71 TR6
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Message: 3
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2017 10:35:05 +0100
From: "John Macartney" <john.macartney at ukpips.org.uk>
To: "'Jeff Scarbrough'" <fishplate at gmail.com>
Cc: 'Triumphs' <triumphs at autox.team.net>
Subject: Re: [TR] Fuel pump problems
Message-ID: <020801d31a60$e4af4270$ae0dc750$@ukpips.org.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I'd look at two issues here. The first is sticking needle valves in the
float chambers. Remove them, brush the fins with fine sandpaper, do the same
to the float valve guides and then re-assemble.
The second is the pump itself. The mechanical pump is notoriously reliable
but they do wear out. A fuel pump repair kit is both cheap and easy to use.
What I'd also have a look at are the various rubber fuel lines from the tank
to the pump and onwards to the carbs. When leaded fuel was finally outlawed
in the UK in 2000, many owners with the fuel injected TR5 and 6 found tiny
pieces of rubber either blocking the mesh filters in the metering unit or in
the injectors themselves. This was caused by the chemical make-up of
unleaded versus leaded fuel in which UNleaded attacked fuel line rubbers
after a lifetime diet of leaded and this caused them to effectively dissolve
into microscopic particles. But this didn't happen to just PI Triumphs. It
was the same for any classic car that had had prolonged use on leaded fuel.
Only you know what fuel diet your car has had in its lifetime and it may be
that the ethanol in US fuels is doing a similar thing? Remedy here is to
strip out all the old rubber hoses and fit new. Shouldn't be a costly or
time-consuming thing to do.
Jonmac
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------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2017 08:20:30 -0400
From: Dave <dave1massey at cs.com>
To: fogbro1 at comcast.net, boleaver at gmail.com, keithstewart at bell.net,
triumphs at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [TR] Fuel pump problems
Message-ID: <15e04bcb8c3-c07-4d0f at webjas-vab069.srv.aolmail.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
"Besides, electric pumps are so MG-ish!!" Or AustinHealey-ish! Take your pick. ;-)
The mechanical fuel pump has a rubber diaphragm that stiffens in time - especially when exposed to alcohol. I replaced my TR6 pump with an electric which has no such issues but I rebuilt my TR3 pump with a fresh diaphragm for originality reasons. The electric pump is more convenient when I am putting the cars in storage and draining the tanks.
Jus' sayin'.
Dave Massey
-----Original Message-----
From: EDWARD WOODS <fogbro1 at comcast.net>
To: Bob Leaver <boleaver at gmail.com>; Keith Stewart <keithstewart at bell.net>; triumphs <triumphs at autox.team.net>
Sent: Sat, Aug 19, 2017 8:35 pm
Subject: Re: [TR] Fuel pump problems
List,
I still haven't figured out why something that's worked for over 40 years and, even now, may not be the source of the problem is so eagerly replaced. And, to boot, it's so much simpler than the replacement: no wires, no electric power requirement, no connections to come loose, no motor to fail, no special mounting, and so on and so on.. Besides, electric pumps are so MG-ish!!
The last fuel pump problem I had was on a TR6. Turned out to be a stubborn clog in the steel fuel line between pump and tank. Only replacement cured it.
Just sayin',
Ed Woods.
On August 19, 2017 at 3:02 PM Keith Stewart <keithstewart at bell.net> wrote:
Bob Leaver wrote:
My Triumph TR4-A starts fine when I pump the fuel pump a few times and seems to run fine for awhile. After about 2-3 miles it starts chugging and tries to kill. I stop open the hood and pump the fuel pump about 20 times and get in and drive for about 1/2 to 1 mile and it chugs again. It takes awhile to get back home this way. I'm thinking of installing an electric fuel pump. Wondering which brand to buy? Some say they pull and push so it doesn't matter where you mount them. I've read where you should mount them close to the tank. It looks like some mount in place of the existing pump as a replacement and other are in combination with the manual pump. Help!!
+++++
Why wouldn?t you just rebuild the pump? Rebuild kits are readily available and the process is pretty simple.
Keith Stewart
keithstewart at bell.net
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Message: 5
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2017 08:25:07 -0400
From: Dave <dave1massey at cs.com>
To: elliottr at rmi.net, triumphs at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [TR] Fuel pump problems
Message-ID: <15e04c0f31f-c0c-7e6 at webjas-vad200.srv.aolmail.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Good point. When I first got the TR6 it would run for a while but then cutout. This turned out to be the tank vent line that goes to the charcoal canister had been routed poorly and was contacting the exhaust pipe and had melted shut. Fixed that any everything is fine.
Be sure to consider the entire fuel system.
Dave Massey
-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Elliott <elliottr at rmi.net>
To: triumphs <triumphs at autox.team.net>
Sent: Sat, Aug 19, 2017 8:37 pm
Subject: Re: [TR] Fuel pump problems
On my wife's 250, we were having a similar problem. The 2 or 3 miles was enough to get on the highway and up to speed.
Tried all kinds of things. Replaced hoses in the engine compartment, the coil - thinking it was getting hot and cutting out. Checked carb diaphrams, fuel filter.
Finally, we found a rubber hose underneath the car at the back. It connects the metal line from the tank to the metal line that goes to the fuel pump. It was soft (probably the original hose) and there was enough movement in the two metal lines to let the hose crimp and block the fuel flow.
Replaced it and it solved the problem.
Roger Elliott
On 8/19/2017 5:51 AM, Chris Simo wrote:
I mounted my facet pump over the fuel pump block off plate (Chevy plate works) and minimal piping mods.
Pump mounting holes are very close to the plate.. i started with studs and later switched to rubber mounts (I had some MG exhaust mounts laying around). While its not at the tank, it is less than 12 inches of lift. Big filter in front of the pump finishes it up.
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Message: 6
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2017 08:34:23 -0400
From: Dave <dave1massey at cs.com>
To: peterara at msn.com, triumphs at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [TR] Fwd: Valve noise?
Message-ID: <15e04c96c8a-c04-4dc5 at webjas-vaa183.srv.aolmail.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Did you have hardened valve seats installed? If so one possibility is the seat came loose. I had that happen on a Ford Escort (aluminum head).
Dave Massey
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Arakelian <peterara at msn.com>
To: triumphs <triumphs at autox.team.net>
Sent: Sun, Aug 20, 2017 4:16 pm
Subject: [TR] Fwd: Valve noise?
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From: Peter Arakelian
Sent: Saturday, August 19, 8:20 AM
Subject: Valve noise?
To: triumphs-request at autox.team.net
>From the right rear of the cylinder head, I am getting a loud clatter. Not like rocker arm tapping on valve, much louder. Goes with rpm's. Whatcha think? Please respond to me directly, too, I am on digest, would like to know without the wait. Thanx in advance.
Peter Arakelian - 71 TR6
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Message: 7
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2017 12:42:51 +0000
From: Peter Arakelian <peterara at msn.com>
To: "triumphs at autox.team.net" <triumphs at autox.team.net>, Dave
<dave1massey at cs.com>
Subject: Re: [TR] Fwd: Valve noise?
Message-ID:
<SN2PR18MB0784F122D527C37290362621C1870 at SN2PR18MB0784.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>
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Yes, new seats. I was thinking one got loose too.
Get Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/ghei36>
________________________________
From: Dave <dave1massey at cs.com>
Sent: Monday, August 21, 2017 5:34:23 AM
To: peterara at msn.com; triumphs at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [TR] Fwd: Valve noise?
Did you have hardened valve seats installed? If so one possibility is the seat came loose. I had that happen on a Ford Escort (aluminum head).
Dave Massey
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Arakelian <peterara at msn.com>
To: triumphs <triumphs at autox.team.net>
Sent: Sun, Aug 20, 2017 4:16 pm
Subject: [TR] Fwd: Valve noise?
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From: Peter Arakelian
Sent: Saturday, August 19, 8:20 AM
Subject: Valve noise?
To: triumphs-request at autox.team.net
>From the right rear of the cylinder head, I am getting a loud clatter. Not like rocker arm tapping on valve, much louder. Goes with rpm's. Whatcha think? Please respond to me directly, too, I am on digest, would like to know without the wait. Thanx in advance.
Peter Arakelian - 71 TR6
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Message: 8
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2017 08:50:13 -0400
From: Dave <dave1massey at cs.com>
To: peterara at msn.com, triumphs at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [TR] Fwd: Valve noise?
Message-ID: <15e04d7ed9c-c0a-8d6 at webjas-vae146.srv.aolmail.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
My escort made a horrendous noise when it happened. I guess you can pull the plugs and the rockershaft assembly and rotate the engine and see if the noise is still there. Pulling the head may be the next step.
Dave Massey (Missed you at VTR)
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Arakelian <peterara at msn.com>
To: triumphs <triumphs at autox.team.net>; Dave <dave1massey at cs.com>
Sent: Mon, Aug 21, 2017 7:42 am
Subject: Re: [TR] Fwd: Valve noise?
Yes, new seats. I was thinking one got loose too.
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From: Dave <dave1massey at cs.com>
Sent: Monday, August 21, 2017 5:34:23 AM
To: peterara at msn.com; triumphs at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [TR] Fwd: Valve noise?
Did you have hardened valve seats installed? If so one possibility is the seat came loose. I had that happen on a Ford Escort (aluminum head).
Dave Massey
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Arakelian <peterara at msn.com>
To: triumphs <triumphs at autox.team.net>
Sent: Sun, Aug 20, 2017 4:16 pm
Subject: [TR] Fwd: Valve noise?
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From: Peter Arakelian
Sent: Saturday, August 19, 8:20 AM
Subject: Valve noise?
To: triumphs-request at autox.team.net
>From the right rear of the cylinder head, I am getting a loud clatter. Not like rocker arm tapping on valve, much louder. Goes with rpm's. Whatcha think? Please respond to me directly, too, I am on digest, would like to know without the wait. Thanx in advance.
Peter Arakelian - 71 TR6
Get Outlook for Android
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Message: 9
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2017 09:25:19 -0400
From: Angelo Graham <agraham at execulink.com>
To: triumphs at autox.team.net
Subject: [TR] TR2/3 wire wheel adapters - frightening experience.
Message-ID: <3423bc27-8bfd-805c-2108-f5fd67b6cdfb at execulink.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Hello List:
Just wanted to comment on a very frightening experience we had on Sunday
while driving our TR2 to a show in a neighbouring town. While just
accelerating after leaving a small village, big bang an commotion from
the left front of the car, and the wheel came tumbling off! Must say the
car behaved well - at about 45 mph. Kept straight when it hit the road
and I managed to get it to the shoulder as the disc ploughed a deep
furrow in the gravel. Fortunately, no traffic coming in the opposite
direction as the wheel was flopping about it the oncoming lane. Some
kind motorists stopped to help and they retrieved my wheel with
knock-off still firmly in place.
Looked at the damage and the front fender had peeled back and the hub
was clearly visible. All the adapter nuts had backed off the studs and
the adapter was still lodged in the wheel with the nuts loose between
the wheel hub and adapter. Wow! not sure what happened here. I had
changed knock-offs a couple of weeks ago and did not find anything amiss
at that time, though I did not check the tightness of the nuts.
Clearly a case of needing to do more routine checking - especially when
it comes to wheels. Can't figure out why the nuts backed off - I think
Loctite would be a good idea here.
Fortunately, no one was injured and we did not cause any further mayhem
with our wayward wheel - could have been catastrophic. Bad thing is my
wife is now a bit gun-shy when it comes to getting back into the TR. She
was already nervous when looking into the wheels of the Ram pick-up in
the adjacent lane, but trying to convince her that the TR is "safe" is
going to be another matter.
Thanks for your indulgence.
Angelo Graham - TR2
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2017 09:57:53 -0500
From: "dave" <dave at ranteer.com>
To: <elliottr at rmi.net>, <triumphs at autox.team.net>
Subject: Re: [TR] Fuel pump problems
Message-ID: <002901d31a8d$de1a1ac0$9a4e5040$@ranteer.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Exact same thing happened to me. Big indicator for this is that when you open the gas cap there is a hiss as the vacuum created gets filled by air.
Of course, this happened when I was driving my teenage daughter home from school. That is SO NOT GOOD!!!
From: Triumphs [mailto:triumphs-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Dave
Sent: Monday, August 21, 2017 7:25 AM
To: elliottr at rmi.net; triumphs at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [TR] Fuel pump problems
Good point. When I first got the TR6 it would run for a while but then cutout. This turned out to be the tank vent line that goes to the charcoal canister had been routed poorly and was contacting the exhaust pipe and had melted shut. Fixed that any everything is fine.
Be sure to consider the entire fuel system.
Dave Massey
-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Elliott <elliottr at rmi.net <mailto:elliottr at rmi.net> >
To: triumphs <triumphs at autox.team.net <mailto:triumphs at autox.team.net> >
Sent: Sat, Aug 19, 2017 8:37 pm
Subject: Re: [TR] Fuel pump problems
On my wife's 250, we were having a similar problem. The 2 or 3 miles was enough to get on the highway and up to speed.
Tried all kinds of things. Replaced hoses in the engine compartment, the coil - thinking it was getting hot and cutting out. Checked carb diaphrams, fuel filter.
Finally, we found a rubber hose underneath the car at the back. It connects the metal line from the tank to the metal line that goes to the fuel pump. It was soft (probably the original hose) and there was enough movement in the two metal lines to let the hose crimp and block the fuel flow.
Replaced it and it solved the problem.
Roger Elliott
On 8/19/2017 5:51 AM, Chris Simo wrote:
I mounted my facet pump over the fuel pump block off plate (Chevy plate works) and minimal piping mods.
Pump mounting holes are very close to the plate.. i started with studs and later switched to rubber mounts (I had some MG exhaust mounts laying around). While its not at the tank, it is less than 12 inches of lift. Big filter in front of the pump finishes it up.
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Message: 11
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2017 11:01:03 -0400
From: "Randall" <TR3driver at ca.rr.com>
To: "'Dave'" <dave1massey at cs.com>, <triumphs at autox.team.net>
Subject: Re: [TR] Fuel pump problems
Message-ID: <6EA271F833E240CF82E0073D678FE01A at LAPTOP4G3QUJHK>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> The mechanical fuel pump has a rubber diaphragm that stiffens
> in time - especially when exposed to alcohol. I replaced my
> TR6 pump with an electric which has no such issues
Actually, many electric pumps do suffer from the same problem. The original
SU electric on my Stag, for example; and the original AC on my motorhome gen
set for another.
The one on the gen set didn't stiffen, though; instead it turned to a very
sticky jelly; which spread through the fuel lines and into the carburetor
before the pump quit working entirely.
In addition, some of the older pumps (like both of those above) have points,
which cause no end of problems. Ask any MG owner about having to tap on the
pump to get it going!
By way of contrast, the original mechanical pump in my former daily driver
TR3A got rebuilt back in the 80s (when CA was using MTBE instead of ethanol)
and was still working fine when the car got wrecked in 2005. Probably
200,000 miles of mostly city driving.
Then I rebuilt the original pump on my current 56 TR3 in 2008, and it still
works fine today. I retired a couple years ago, so I don't drive as many
miles; maybe only 60,000 on it so far.
Electric pumps wear out too. My 95 Buick is on it's 3rd pump (that I know
of) and hasn't quite turned 300,000 yet. Rather frustrating, as the factory
pump became intermittent. When I had it towed to the shop after it wouldn't
start (and I had verified lack of fuel pressure and power to the pump); it
started right up for them! Then when I went to pick it up, it wouldn't
start again. Post mortem showed a burned segment on the commutator along
with a ragged edge in the actual pump chamber that was probably catching and
stalling the rotor.
My bout with lack of fuel delivery on the TR3 turned out to be accumulated
crud in the fuel line (twice I told the body shop specifically to cover the
fuel inlet while sanding, both times they failed to do it). It would shift
around and almost completely block the flow, usually only after I had driven
10 or 15 miles. Blowing shop air backwards into the tank turned the
remaining fuel absolutely black! But solved the problem. (I added a paper
element fuel filter to catch the floating crud.)
-- Randall
------------------------------
Message: 12
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2017 16:02:30 +0000 (UTC)
From: Frank Fisher <yellowtr3 at yahoo.com>
To: Angelo Graham <agraham at execulink.com>, "triumphs at autox.team.net"
<triumphs at autox.team.net>
Subject: Re: [TR] TR2/3 wire wheel adapters - frightening experience.
Message-ID: <1159727934.1547264.1503331350811 at mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Angelodid you cut down the wheel studs?or did you put a spacer behind the wire wheel adapters?
without doing either of these things your wheel would have been tight against the studs and not seated properly.
frank
From: Angelo Graham <agraham at execulink.com>
To: triumphs at autox.team.net
Sent: Monday, August 21, 2017 7:49 AM
Subject: [TR] TR2/3 wire wheel adapters - frightening experience.
Hello List:
Just wanted to comment on a very frightening experience we had on Sunday
while driving our TR2 to a show in a neighbouring town. While just
accelerating after leaving a small village, big bang an commotion from
the left front of the car, and the wheel came tumbling off! Must say the
car behaved well - at about 45 mph. Kept straight when it hit the road
and I managed to get it to the shoulder as the disc ploughed a deep
furrow in the gravel. Fortunately, no traffic coming in the opposite
direction as the wheel was flopping about it the oncoming lane. Some
kind motorists stopped to help and they retrieved my wheel with
knock-off still firmly in place.
Looked at the damage and the front fender had peeled back and the hub
was clearly visible. All the adapter nuts had backed off the studs and
the adapter was still lodged in the wheel with the nuts loose between
the wheel hub and adapter. Wow! not sure what happened here. I had
changed knock-offs a couple of weeks ago and did not find anything amiss
at that time, though I did not check the tightness of the nuts.
Clearly a case of needing to do more routine checking - especially when
it comes to wheels. Can't figure out why the nuts backed off - I think
Loctite would be a good idea here.
Fortunately, no one was injured and we did not cause any further mayhem
with our wayward wheel - could have been catastrophic. Bad thing is my
wife is now a bit gun-shy when it comes to getting back into the TR. She
was already nervous when looking into the wheels of the Ram pick-up in
the adjacent lane, but trying to convince her that the TR is "safe" is
going to be another matter.
Thanks for your indulgence.
Angelo Graham - TR2
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Message: 13
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2017 13:54:56 -0400
From: "Randall" <TR3driver at ca.rr.com>
To: "'Angelo Graham'" <agraham at execulink.com>,
<triumphs at autox.team.net>
Subject: Re: [TR] TR2/3 wire wheel adapters - frightening experience.
Message-ID: <43BDBD5FD1E44A469A1AC42109384BAC at LAPTOP4G3QUJHK>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> Clearly a case of needing to do more routine checking -
> especially when
> it comes to wheels. Can't figure out why the nuts backed off
> - I think
> Loctite would be a good idea here.
I'm not sure about Loctite, but it is definitely important to torque those
funky double-taper nuts to 65 ft-lb (not the 50 ft-lb used for regular lug
nuts). Not just any time you have them off, but every year as part of your
annual wire wheel maintenance (IMO).
The physics is a bit hard to explain, but basically because they are right
hand threads on the left hand side; any tiny bit of motion will eventually
unscrew the nut!
I had the same thing happen with Dad's TR3A many decades ago, except I was
fortunate enough to notice the squirrely handling caused by the adapter
being almost off the studs before the wheel actually parted company. Just
pure luck that two of the nuts were still on the threads when I took an exit
ramp rather faster than I should have.
Then the same thing happened again, same car, just a few years ago. That
time the wheel did come off, taking the fender with it.
-- Randall
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