[TR] TR250 handling question

Sat Jul 2 14:04:57 MDT 2016

Yes, understeer on twisty roads, which I first noticed when the thought 
occurred halfway through one turn, "Oh, the car isn't turning! That's 
interesting." Like the back end was pushing the car straight. Woke me up 
to driving on the alert because the car didn't feel connected to the 
road, as your description of a feeling like driving on ice.

Whatever the shop did on round two corrected the occasional dive to the 
left when hard braking. Go figure that one.

We did not believe the story about the aftermarket wheels being an issue 
- 7" Enkei mags. They tried to blame the wheels and the new tires for 
the performance differences. Clearly, this shop doesn't know as much as 
it thinks it does, a dangerous situation. They should maybe stick to Volvos.

So, we will get someone else to check alignment and find a new garage to 
work on our cars. Thank you so much for all of the notes below! More 
info in your post and the links than I knew was available.

Pat

On 6/30/2016 4:22 PM, StagByTriumph at triumphstagclub.org wrote:
>
> I am going to side with Massey on this one, because, he is almost correct.
>
> For confirmation, go check any site recommending alignments for road 
> track / autocross  racing.
>
> Here is one - http://winhpde.com/track-alignment/
>
> And  another http://www.ozebiz.com.au/racetech/theory/align.html
>
> (Ted Schumacher, you and pipe in any time here …)
>
> Most of us want our Triumphs tuned like we are driving on a road 
> course race track.
>
> The handling description described  is similar to driving on a road of 
> ball bearings or ice?
>
> That is oversteer from too much negative camber or too much toe, or 
> both, and with full independent suspension, this becomes more critical 
> for optimum handling because all four wheels must be properly adjusted 
> for correct handling.
>
> Tire size will directly affect the camber condition if the tire is 
> wider or narrower than OE, the camber will be directly affected.  
> Alignment specifications are set for OE standard tires, which are not 
> available o for most of our LBC’s these days.
>
> Unless there are bad suspension components or misadjusted wheel 
> bearings,  the handling condition is completely indicative  of 
> incorrect alignment.
>
> I had a local alignment guy who did alignments for Rocky Mountain 
> Vintage Racers, and he could set up 4 wheel alignment to handle any 
> way the driver wanted – understeer – oversteer – neutral.
>
> Depending on the type of suspension, each setup by suspension type is 
> different.
>
> TR250’s have full IRS, so rear toe / camber is just as important as 
> the front.
>
> Front toe in adds to the eagerness of the turn, rear toe in adds to 
> the quickness to rotate into a turn.
>
> Camber affects how the tire contacts the road surface.  Too much 
> negative camber and you product oversteer.
>
> Combine with incorrect toe in and negative camber and the car feels 
> like it is on ice or ball bearings
>
> My Stags were like that, so was my TR250.  The Stag uses Struts, the 
> TR250 uses A Arms.  I had my guy set the camber and toe front and rear 
> at the edge of the specs between neutral and oversteer handling, and 
> they now ride like they are on rails, solid as a rock, yet responsive 
> and predictive.
>
> Glenn Merrell
>
> +1 (303) 817-8559 mobile
>
> aka StagByTriumph Garage (/now on FaceBook/)
>
> Remember, “the BEST trophies are: Miles on the Odometer; Stone chips 
> in the paint; and DEAD BUGS on the windscreen … with the occasional 
> smell of manure!”
>
> *From:*Triumphs [mailto:triumphs-bounces at autox.team.net] *On Behalf Of 
> *ptegler at verizon.net
> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 28, 2016 8:49 AM
> *To:* dave1massey at cs.com; triumphs at autox.team.net
> *Subject:* Re: [TR] TR250 handling question
>
> pure rubish. Plain and simple they screwed up your alignment as it was 
> before.
> Just replacing the rack has nothing to do with alignment (other than 
> initial adjustment of course) Camber and caster, alignment and wheel 
> balance = tracking
> They simply have not gotten your alignment etc anywhere near where it 
> was before.
>
> why did they say you needed a new steering rack?  Recent accident? 
> (major shock/jolt)  over 50-80K miles of rough roads since last serviced?
>
> Paul Tegler
> ptegler at verizon.net <mailto:ptegler at verizon.net>
> www.teglerizer.com <http://www.teglerizer.com>
>
> On 06/28/16, Dave<dave1massey at cs.com 
> <mailto:dave1massey at cs.com>></dave1massey@ wrote:
>
> That sounds like the caster adjustment is out.  TR3's have zero caster 
> and I am forever correcting the steering to keep it in the lane.
>
> Dave Massey
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Pat Fischer <pfischer at rmi.net <mailto:pfischer at rmi.net>>
> To: triumph list list <triumphs at autox.team.net 
> <mailto:triumphs at autox.team.net>>
> Sent: Mon, Jun 27, 2016 2:58 pm
> Subject: [TR] TR250 handling question
>
> Hello, Listers. Hoping for your expertise here.
>
> Took the 250 to a local shop for some small body repair and new tires.
> Handling of the car has always been superb with wider-than-stock wheels
> and low profile tires, but the two of the tires were 15 years old, so a
> rubber update was needed. The shop also told me that the car also needed
> a new steering rack and tie rod ends. They did this, set alignment and
> lubed the front end.
>
> First getting the car back, the car vibrated at 70 on the highway. Shop
> says they've fixed that with re-balancing the tires. (I haven't driven
> it yet.)
>
> Next, the car feels skittish, jittery at 50-60 mph, and you have to keep
> correcting with steering to keep it straight in its lane. You'll be
> driving along just fine and then Whoops! there is goes twitching left a
> bit. It doesn't feel stuck to the road as before this work was done.
> Here's the question: the shop tells us that this is normal after
> replacing the steering rack, that "the car is more responsive," in their
> words, and has "a more immediate feel to it," but they also reference
> this as "twitchy-ness."
>
> What should expectations be upon replacing steering rack and tie-rod ends?
>
> Many thanks,
>
> Pat Fischer
>
>
>
>
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