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    <p>Yes, understeer on twisty roads, which I first noticed when the
      thought occurred halfway through one turn, "Oh, the car isn't
      turning! That's interesting." Like the back end was pushing the
      car straight. Woke me up to driving on the alert because the car
      didn't feel connected to the road, as your description of a
      feeling like driving on ice.<br>
    </p>
    <p>Whatever the shop did on round two corrected the occasional dive
      to the left when hard braking. Go figure that one.</p>
    <p>We did not believe the story about the aftermarket wheels being
      an issue - 7" Enkei mags. They tried to blame the wheels and the
      new tires for the performance differences. Clearly, this shop
      doesn't know as much as it thinks it does, a dangerous situation.
      They should maybe stick to Volvos.<br>
    </p>
    <p>So, we will get someone else to check alignment and find a new
      garage to work on our cars. Thank you so much for all of the notes
      below! More info in your post and the links than I knew was
      available.</p>
    <p>Pat<br>
    </p>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 6/30/2016 4:22 PM,
      <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:StagByTriumph@triumphstagclub.org">StagByTriumph@triumphstagclub.org</a> wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAOZERzOiCItOi8Nw123laD8ijAAAEAAAAJKx6qFOtYhGvTZbBfKRYxgBAAAAAA==@freelanceconsulting.net"
      type="cite">
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        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I
            am going to side with Massey on this one, because, he is
            almost correct.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">For
            confirmation, go check any site recommending alignments for
            road track / autocross  racing.  <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Here
            is one - <a moz-do-not-send="true"
              href="http://winhpde.com/track-alignment/">http://winhpde.com/track-alignment/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">And
             another <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.ozebiz.com.au/racetech/theory/align.html">http://www.ozebiz.com.au/racetech/theory/align.html</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">(Ted
            Schumacher, you and pipe in any time here …)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Most
            of us want our Triumphs tuned like we are driving on a road 
            course race track.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">The
            handling description described  is similar to driving on a
            road of ball bearings or ice?  <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">That
            is oversteer from too much negative camber or too much toe,
            or both, and with full independent suspension, this becomes
            more critical for optimum handling because all four wheels
            must be properly adjusted for correct handling.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Tire
            size will directly affect the camber condition if the tire
            is wider or narrower than OE, the camber will be directly
            affected.  Alignment specifications are set for OE standard
            tires, which are not available o for most of our LBC’s these
            days.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Unless
            there are bad suspension components or misadjusted wheel
            bearings,  the handling condition is completely indicative
             of incorrect alignment.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I
            had a local alignment guy who did alignments for Rocky
            Mountain Vintage Racers, and he could set up 4 wheel
            alignment to handle any way the driver wanted – understeer –
            oversteer – neutral.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Depending
            on the type of suspension, each setup by suspension type is
            different.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">TR250’s
            have full IRS, so rear toe / camber is just as important as
            the front. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Front
            toe in adds to the eagerness of the turn, rear toe in adds
            to the quickness to rotate into a turn.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Camber
            affects how the tire contacts the road surface.  Too much
            negative camber and you product oversteer.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Combine
            with incorrect toe in and negative camber and the car feels
            like it is on ice or ball bearings<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">My
            Stags were like that, so was my TR250.  The Stag uses
            Struts, the TR250 uses A Arms.  I had my guy set the camber
            and toe front and rear at the edge of the specs between
            neutral and oversteer handling, and they now ride like they
            are on rails, solid as a rock, yet responsive and
            predictive.  <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Glenn
            Merrell  <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">+1
            (303) 817-8559 mobile<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">aka
            StagByTriumph Garage (<i>now on FaceBook</i>)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Remember,
            “the BEST trophies are: Miles on the Odometer; Stone chips
            in the paint; and DEAD BUGS on the windscreen … with the
            occasional smell of manure!”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
            Triumphs [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:triumphs-bounces@autox.team.net">mailto:triumphs-bounces@autox.team.net</a>] <b>On
              Behalf Of </b><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ptegler@verizon.net">ptegler@verizon.net</a><br>
            <b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, June 28, 2016 8:49 AM<br>
            <b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dave1massey@cs.com">dave1massey@cs.com</a>; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:triumphs@autox.team.net">triumphs@autox.team.net</a><br>
            <b>Subject:</b> Re: [TR] TR250 handling question<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">pure
                rubish. Plain and simple they screwed up your alignment
                as it was before. <br>
                Just replacing the rack has nothing to do with alignment
                (other than initial adjustment of course) Camber and
                caster, alignment and wheel balance = tracking<br>
                They simply have not gotten your alignment etc anywhere
                near where it was before.<br>
                <br>
                why did they say you needed a new steering rack?  Recent
                accident? (major shock/jolt)  over 50-80K miles of rough
                roads since last serviced? <o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Paul
              Tegler<br>
              <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                href="mailto:ptegler@verizon.net">ptegler@verizon.net</a><br>
              <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.teglerizer.com">www.teglerizer.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">On
              06/28/16, Dave<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                href="mailto:dave1massey@cs.com">dave1massey@cs.com</a><span
                class="misspelled">></dave1massey@ wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">That
                sounds like the caster adjustment is out.  TR3's have
                zero caster and I am forever correcting the steering to
                keep it in the lane.</span><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Dave
                  Massey</span><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">-----Original
                  Message-----<br>
                  From: Pat Fischer <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:pfischer@rmi.net" target="_blank">pfischer@rmi.net</a>><br>
                  To: triumph list list <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:triumphs@autox.team.net"
                    target="_blank">triumphs@autox.team.net</a>><br>
                  Sent: Mon, Jun 27, 2016 2:58 pm<br>
                  Subject: [TR] TR250 handling question<br>
                  <br>
                  Hello, Listers. Hoping for your expertise here.<br>
                  <br>
                  Took the 250 to a local shop for some small body
                  repair and new tires. <br>
                  Handling of the car has always been superb with
                  wider-than-stock wheels <br>
                  and low profile tires, but the two of the tires were
                  15 years old, so a <br>
                  rubber update was needed. The shop also told me that
                  the car also needed <br>
                  a new steering rack and tie rod ends. They did this,
                  set alignment and <br>
                  lubed the front end.<br>
                  <br>
                  First getting the car back, the car vibrated at 70 on
                  the highway. Shop <br>
                  says they've fixed that with re-balancing the tires.
                  (I haven't driven <br>
                  it yet.)<br>
                  <br>
                  Next, the car feels skittish, jittery at 50-60 mph,
                  and you have to keep <br>
                  correcting with steering to keep it straight in its
                  lane. You'll be <br>
                  driving along just fine and then Whoops! there is goes
                  twitching left a <br>
                  bit. It doesn't feel stuck to the road as before this
                  work was done. <br>
                  Here's the question: the shop tells us that this is
                  normal after <br>
                  replacing the steering rack, that "the car is more
                  responsive," in their <br>
                  words, and has "a more immediate feel to it," but they
                  also reference <br>
                  this as "twitchy-ness."<br>
                  <br>
                  What should expectations be upon replacing steering
                  rack and tie-rod ends?<br>
                  <br>
                  Many thanks,<br>
                  <br>
                  Pat Fischer<br>
                  <br>
                  <br>
                  <br>
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</pre>
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      <p class="" avgcert""="" color="#000000" align="left">No virus
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