[TR] update - the mystery continues

Sat Oct 17 14:16:31 MDT 2015

Interesting approach, Randall.  Eliminate the possibility of a valve guide problem by installing seals.  If the smoke clears, it's a problem with the guides, if it doesn't look to the rings.  

Seems like a reasonable place to start,
Dave H.

Sent from my iPad

> On Oct 17, 2015, at 10:55 AM, Reihing, Randall S. <Randall.Reihing at utoledo.edu> wrote:
> 
> The following is just my opinion and is only presented to see if it can help, not to criticize anyone. 
> 
> I know the amount of smoke that can be generated because of worn valve seals sounds a little difficult to believe but in aviation when we want to lay down a serious smoke cloud, for example during allow pass at a pancake flyin, all it takes is a small aquarium pump, a few ounces of oil injected into one of the exhaust tubes and it's hard to believe how much smoke that will generate. Our company once had a late model Ford sedan, small v8, used by the reps. One of those smoked so bad it was cited, while parked, by local police for creating a public nuisance with the smoke it was generating. Turned out to be badly worn valve seals. When they were replaced with new Perfect Circle valve seals the issue was resolved. That is not to say it is not the oil rings causing the problem but it's so much easier to check the least expensive, easiest area to access first, then it is to pull the head and/or tear down the engine to check the rings. At least if you replace a few oil seals, without having to remove the head, and it still smokes then for sure the next step is the valve guides and maybe the rings. 
> 
> Several years ago we had a vintage twin engine aircraft land at our EAA Clubs airport that had flown all the way from England to attend the big AirVenture airshow in Oshkosh, WI. The right engine had lost oil pressure and the pilot made an emergency landing. The local IA mechanic, (The highest mechanic rating there is) examined the aircraft and determined it was a faulty oil pressure gauge. The pilot, in a surplus of well understood caution, politely decided that was not possible, had the entire right engine removed, crated, and shipped back to England where it was determined the engine was fine with no oil pressure issues. The engine was returned one month later, reinstalled and when it was started the oil pressure gauge for that engine indicated zero oil pressure. That was when they replaced the gauge. A few hours later the pilot departed, did a low pass over the field and waved at all of us as we took photos and waved back, then he turned and took up an easterly heading toward Canada and the route home to England. Unfortunately, he missed the airshow and spent several thousands of dollars when he could have at least tried checking the gauge on a bench with air pressure to see if it was faulty, before he had the engine removed, crated and shipped. There are times when it is valid to check the easiest and least expensive first. It's not always the cure and if it's not it does at least remove one more uncertainty. 
> 
> These are must my thoughts based on 40 years building 800 HP supercharged racing engines and being a pilot who maintains his own aircraft and two vintage 1960 Triumph TR3A's. 
> From: Triumphs [triumphs-bounces at autox.team.net] on behalf of Geo Hahn [ahwahneetr at gmail.com]
> Sent: Friday, October 16, 2015 9:45 PM
> To: Rye Livingston
> Cc: Triumphs
> Subject: Re: [TR] update - the mystery continues
> 
> I recall you initially had a problem with an incorrectly installed oil ring (overlapped instead of end-to-end).  Sure sounds like that again since leak down and compression tests reveal nothing.
> 
> I have a hard time imagining valve guides could cause the massive blue smoke you're seeing - but a failed oil ring sure could.
> 
> Geo
> 
>> On Fri, Oct 16, 2015 at 5:25 PM, Rye Livingston <ryel at mac.com> wrote:
>> The mystery continues.
>> 
>> First off my bad.  It's clearly blue-ish smoke, not white.  It's burning oil not water.
>> 
>> So today I cleaned up the plugs and fired it up again to get it up to normal operating temperature, and the smoke was billowing down the street like police had been throwing out tear gas canisters.  Your comment was if it lingers for a moment or three it's oil. This cloud is lingering for 10-20 plus seconds as it was rolling down the street.
>> 
>> Got it warmed up and first did a leak down test.  Rotated the engine to get each piston at the top of it's stroke with the values closed for ignition, then put 100 psi into each cylinder and 1, 3 and 4 held steady at 98psi. #2 held steady at 95psi.  No issues uncovered.
>> 
>> Next was a compression test.  Engine still warm, throttle wide open, all four came up to 150 lbs plus 1-2 lbs. No issues uncovered.
>> 
>> So our thoughts at this point is it can't be a head gasket if we're getting good compression numbers and good leak down test numbers.
>> 
>> Additional info - When I bought this TR4a head for this rebuild, it had been serviced many years ago but never installed on an engine.  The machine shop tore it down and installed new hardened valve seats and checked everything out - supposedly.  I was told the valves, valve springs and valve guides were all good, but now we're thinking this whole thing could be related to bad valve guides.
>> 
>> Not that this should matter, but I also installed a big bore kit so sleeves and pistons are all new.
>> 
>> I expect the head will come off again but hope to zero in on the problem before dismantling it.
>> 
>> Regards,
>> Rye
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Oct 15, 2015, at 07:46 PM, ptegler <ptegler at verizon.net> wrote:
>> 
>>> seconded...
>>>     blue is 'burning' oil, not just super heated oil blowby which is usually white.
>>> If it dissipates almost immediately it's water, if it lingers for a moment or three.... its oil
>>> 
>>> ptegler
>>> 
>>>> On 10/15/2015 10:51 AM, Brad Kahler wrote:
>>>> Lots of white smoke doesn't always indicate water/coolant.  On my TR4 engine that had been freshly rebuilt when I bought it I had billowing clouds of white smoke.  After several head gasket changes I finally realized that the new liners (liner & piston kit) had not been cross hatched so the rings didn't seat.  This allowed for massive amounts of oil to be sucked up and out the exhaust.  Result was white smoke.
>>>> 
>>>> So the question is, were the cylinder liners cross hatched so the rings would seal?
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 9:15 AM, Chris Simo <ccsimonsen at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Is that water or oil?    Lots of white smoke would indicate to me a blown head gasket and water on the plugs.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Did you replace the head gasket with a new one when you fixed the oil ring?   Probably not recommended, but I've reused them (1x)  in the past, but always painted them with the copper coat head gasket paint.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I've blown head gaskets that leaked water into the pistons only -- no water in the oil.  But you may want to check your oil for contamination.
>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ** triumphs at autox.team.net **
>>>> 
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>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Paul Tegler ptegler at verizon.net www.teglerizer.com
>> 
>> 
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