[Spridgets] Fwd: Fw: interesting discovery
HealeyRick
healeyrik at gmail.com
Sat Nov 4 12:50:07 MDT 2023
---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: HealeyRick <healeyrick at yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, Nov 4, 2023 at 2:47 PM
Subject: Bugeye Floor Color
To: healeyrik at gmail.com <healeyrik at gmail.com>
>From the thread below, it appears that many bugeyes were only painted
underneath in the brown primer. Apparently, it differed according to the
painter or maybe how much paint he had left in his spray pot
Rick
"Madman in a death machine" Follow My Nasty Boy Build:
http://tinyurl.com/yj52fwo
----- Forwarded Message -----
*From:* FREDERICK JORDAN <frejor33 at aol.com>
*To:* Jonathan W-Bird <sprinzelsebring at aol.com>
*Cc:* HealeyRick <healeyrick at yahoo.com>; BRIAN THORNTON <healeynut at aol.com>;
"randyhicks at me.com" <randyhicks at me.com>; Jim Smalley <jimsmalley at comcast.net>;
Rick Fisk <refisk at chartermi.net>; Gerard Chateauvieux <
gerardc221133 at gmail.com>; Peter Downie <shirttail8 at aol.com>; Jay Fishbein <
jfishbein at snet.com>; Alan Fisher <keenefrogeye at gmail.com>; "
bgearns at yahoo.com" <bgearns at yahoo.com>; Ken Grasing <ken.grasing at gmail.com>;
"benkenion at gmail.com" <benkenion at gmail.com>; George Marinos <
Gmari2 at verizon.net>
*Sent:* Wednesday, October 5, 2022 at 08:57:02 PM EDT
*Subject:* Re: interesting discovery
So considering we seem to be in agreement that most of the bottoms of the
Sprites ( at least MK I ) were only primer painted, shouldn’t we address
this in the standards AND perhaps put this information out now rather than
later since there are
cars in the process of restoration that would be docked points in judging?
I’d hate to be the judge that had to tell someone that their well painted
car was incorrect with body color on the underside.
Fred
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 2, 2022, at 8:22 AM, Jonathan W-Bird <sprinzelsebring at aol.com> wrote:
Fantastic stuff!
Has everyone seen the Abingdon (Sprite/Midget) assembly line footage, from
1969, that I have?
It provides some insight into how Mk.I Sprites were originally built ten
years earlier.
Best wishes,
Jonathan
Sent from my Galaxy
-------- Original message --------
From: HealeyRick <healeyrick at yahoo.com>
Date: 02/10/2022 00:34 (GMT+01:00)
To: FREDERICK JORDAN <frejor33 at aol.com>, BRIAN THORNTON <healeynut at aol.com>,
Jonathan W-Bird <sprinzelsebring at aol.com>
Cc: randyhicks at me.com, Jim Smalley <jimsmalley at comcast.net>, Rick Fisk <
refisk at chartermi.net>, Gerard Chateauvieux <gerardc221133 at gmail.com>, Peter
Downie <shirttail8 at aol.com>, Jay Fishbein <jfishbein at snet.com>, Alan Fisher
<keenefrogeye at gmail.com>, bgearns at yahoo.com, Ken Grasing <
ken.grasing at gmail.com>, benkenion at gmail.com, George Marinos <
gmari2 at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: interesting discovery
The Rotodip was illustrated on Minis here:
Bmc Presents Wizardry On Wheels Reel 2 (1961)
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9g6FWriz-g> and from the way the rusted
in the states it was as useful as a screen door in a submarine.
Rick
Bmc Presents Wizardry On Wheels Reel 2 (1961)
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9g6FWriz-g>
"Madman in a death machine" Follow My Nasty Boy Build:
http://tinyurl.com/yj52fwo
On Saturday, October 1, 2022 at 05:18:53 PM EDT, Jonathan W-Bird <
sprinzelsebring at aol.com> wrote:
Hi,
This primer paint process was known as 'Slipper Dipping'.
All Sprite (and Midget) bodyshells were painted with primer at BMC Cowley,
in Coventry, before receiving their final top coats, and were then
transported, by road, to Abingdon for final assembly.
At each stage of the process another body tag number was added.
The other primer paint process employed by BMC (this time at Longbridge, in
Birmingham), was 'Rotor Dipping', where the bodyshell was mounted on a
skewer and fully immersed whilst being rotated.
Sadly, BMC Cowley didn't have this process and the Sprite bodyshell was so
constructed as not to allow for skewer mounting.
Cheers,
Jonathan
Sent from my Galaxy
-------- Original message --------
From: FREDERICK JORDAN <frejor33 at aol.com>
Date: 01/10/2022 15:21 (GMT+01:00)
To: BRIAN THORNTON <healeynut at aol.com>
Cc: randyhicks at me.com, Jim Smalley <jimsmalley at comcast.net>, Rick Neville <
healeyrick at yahoo.com>, Rick Fisk <refisk at chartermi.net>, Jonathan Bird <
sprinzelsebring at aol.com>, Gerard Chateauvieux <gerardc221133 at gmail.com>,
Peter Downie <shirttail8 at aol.com>, Jay Fishbein <jfishbein at snet.com>, Alan
Fisher <keenefrogeye at gmail.com>, bgearns at yahoo.com, Ken Grasing <
ken.grasing at gmail.com>, benkenion at gmail.com, George Marinos <
Gmari2 at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: interesting discovery
Interesting as our concours standard don’t address this! Hmmmm!
Fred
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 1, 2022, at 9:13 AM, BRIAN THORNTON <healeynut at aol.com> wrote:
Hello Fred,
The bodies were dip primed in a red-ish/brown primer. We know that they
were dip primed because one will find this primer inside enclosed boxed
sections of the body like the front cross member behind the radiator. I
removed and replaced the lower panel of the crossmember on our AN5 because
jacks had dented this panel and it looked awful! When I drilled out the
spot welds and ground away the seam welds, a nice coat of red-ish/brown
primer saw the light of day for the first time in this enclosed box section.
Regarding color coat paint coverage of the underside of the boot/floorpans
itself, this appears to vary based on individual application by the
painter.
The following photos (albeit small) from HAN5L/24858 illustrate that this
car did not receive much in the way of color coat on the floors/frame
horns. It appears the the entire underside of the car remained in primer.
[image: 53.jpg]
[image: 48.jpg]
This is AN5L/4103 (Speedwell Blue). This California car’s floors are
entirely covered in dip primer.
[image: c524-frame-remote.jpg]
[image: c524-underleft-thumb.jpg]
[image: c524-underright-thumb.jpg]
What you’ve discovered is consistent with AN5 painting process. Thanks for
sharing.
Regards,
Brian
On Oct 1, 2022, at 7:10 AM, FREDERICK JORDAN <frejor33 at aol.com> wrote:
<image.jpg>We recently replaced the gas tank on Peter Downie’s 59. This is
the first time the tank has been dropped. To our surprise there was no
green paint above the tank but appears to be the factory brownish primer.
Fred
On Sep 27, 2022, at 9:59 AM, Randy Hicks <randyhicks at me.com> wrote:
Hi Fred, I’m not totally sure what you are asking here.
Are you questioning the viability of Sprites in Concours or the effort to
update Sprite Guidelines? Or Both?
I did see the 501 Sprite at Enclave and it was quite nice. It did receive a
solid Gold Award despite the lack of original floor covering. (It did not
receive the 20 point deduction some wanted as it did not have carpeted
floor covering.) The max. point deduction allowed was 10 points for Floor
Covering, Padding and Fasteners. I did not do a count on the number of
Sprites in attendance, but there was quite a few.
Just for reference, in the last 10 years, 64 Big Healeys and 11 Sprites
have been thru Concours Inspections in the US.
With regard to the Sprite Guidelines (& Big Healey Guidelines), I have
never felt they were for Concours Inspections Only. I believe they are a
document designed detail how the cars were originally produced. whether
they are used for Concours Inspection or used to just maintain as close to
original. If not recorded as much as possible, many details will be lost in
years to come. That is where I see the true value.
Just my $.02.
Randy
…………………….
On Sep 20, 2022, at 5:54 PM, FREDERICK JORDAN <frejor33 at aol.com> wrote:
To my understanding, there was only one Sprite in concours at the Enclave.
This begs a serious question. What are we doing here? Is it the lack of
interest in the majority of the Sprite community? I’ve always been an
originality guy. Not to beat a dead horse but are the floor mats part of a
perception that one can’t do well in concours even though it’s a (for the
most part) an even playing field? What about later Sprites? The lack of
interest is something to consider. BTW as far as I understand, 501 did
place gold. Regardless of floor covering. If we continue, how do we
encourage concours in the Sprite world in a group that has somewhat
disregarded Sprites in general. Sad but true imho. The one Healey that
actually survived albeit as a Midget until 1979! What are the attitudes
across the pond?
Fred
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 16, 2022, at 12:44 PM, Jim Smalley <jimsmalley at comcast.net> wrote:
Gentlemen,
As I said yesterday when I agreed with Bruce, please, no more pre-judging
by emails. The matter is closed at this point. We continue to stray from
the original topic.
I will discuss the matter with the Sprite judging team before next week's
judging at Enclave. I will review past Sprite judging sheets over the years
this weekend to see how past judges have scored this issue.
It is obvious that the Sprite committee has their work cut out for them
this fall regarding judging sheets and their scores. I am a bit
disappointed that we didn't have very much feedback from other committee
members regarding this issue. Thank you to those that took the time to
respond.
Have a good weekend and drive safe on your way to Enclave.
Thanks
Jim Smalley
National judging chairman
Sent from phone
On Sep 16, 2022, at 8:30 AM, BRIAN THORNTON <healeynut at aol.com> wrote:
Hello Randy,
When you are judging do you always mark the *maximum deduction*
Absolutely not. In the case that we are discussing, (floor coverings),
both Big Healey and Sprite Score Sheet possess Standard Deductions. I
believe that the Standard Deductions in the existing Sprite Score Sheets
are applicable for floor coverings that are manufactured in materials other
than carpet in AN5/AN6 cars (my logic follows).
So, you are telling me that you would rather see an entrant use Carpet
instead of trying to make the floor covering look as close as possible to
Original? Less points for Carpet? I can not follow the logic here! This is
not how we encourage entrant to get their cars as lose as possible to
original
My logic is:
1. Original rubber mats are original
2. Carpet is a non-original floor covering. The Score Sheets dictate the
Standard Deduction that should be assessed based on carpet type. No
consideration is given to how closely the carpet installation
compares/contrasts with the original rubber mat design or installation.
3. All other materials used for the purpose of covering floors are
non-original.
4. ∴ Floor coverings manufactured from non-original material/s should be
subject to the same Standard Deduction as carpet
On Sep 16, 2022, at 8:22 AM, Randy Hicks <randyhicks at me.com> wrote:
Brian, just a couple quick comments and then I’m out until after Enclave.
First, You stated:
"*(“rubber like or close attempts” while simple, is entirely subjective.
This is why I raised the question regarding the Hardura installation that
you’re going to witness next week. Is Hardura rubber like,
the surface kinda is. Is the attempt to match the original design of the
molded rubber floor covering close, sort of…).”*
Yes, our judging is very subjective. When you are judging do you always
mark the *maximum deduction* to a line item if you are going to deduct for
it? Do you ever deduct 1/2 point vs. 1 point, deduct 4 points instead of
max 5 for a line item? If you do, you are the first judge I’ve ever seen
do it.
*Secondly, You state:*
- "Original mats = No deduction for originality, up to 6 points
deduction for condition
- Carpet - 15 - 20 point deduction (depending on carpet type) for
non-originality, up to 6 points deduction for condition
- Any other material - 20 point deduction for non-originality, up to 6
points deduction for condition"
So, you are telling me that you would rather see an entrant use Carpet
instead of trying to make the floor covering look as close as possible to
Original? Less points for Carpet? I can not follow the logic here! This is
not how we encourage entrant to get their cars as lose as possible to
original, and yes, there needs to be some deduction.
Randy
On Sep 16, 2022, at 6:12 AM, BRIAN THORNTON <healeynut at aol.com> wrote:
- Original mats = No originality deduction *(I agree)*
- Carpet - Up to 20 point deduction for non-originality, up to 6 points
for condition *(I agree)*
- Rubber like or close attempts to match the original - Up to 10 point
deduction for non-originality, up to 6 points for condition *(“rubber
like or close attempts” while simple, is entirely subjective. This is why
I raised the question regarding the Hardura installation that you’re going
to witness next week. Is Hardura rubber like, the surface kinda is. Is
the attempt to match the original design of the molded rubber floor
covering close, sort of…).*
Bruce has presented the best rationale that I’ve seen as to why the
Standard Deductions for carpet apply to all other floor covering
materials/types other than the original rubber floor mats.
"The Standard Deductions for floor coverings for Sprites were established
to address anything other than the original floor coverings. On AN5’s this
meant rubber mats, on AN6-AN9’s this meant carpet. They were worded to
cover what had usually been presented other than the original materials.
They call out the two types of carpeting because they were used in AN6- AN9
(in the case of cut pile) or are offered by many current suppliers (in the
case of loop). We did not call out shag carpeting or indoor/outdoor
carpeting. In my opinion, just because someone shows up with a material
that is not specifically called out in the Standard Deductions, does not
mean they should receive less than a Standard Deduction."
The resulting simple (and importantly objective) Standard Deduction scale
for AN5/AN6 cars is as follows in my view:
- Original mats = No deduction for originality, up to 6 points deduction
for condition
- Carpet - 15 - 20 point deduction (depending on carpet type) for
non-originality, up to 6 points deduction for condition
- Any other material - 20 point deduction for non-originality, up to 6
points deduction for condition
Have a safe and enjoyable trip for those attending Enclave.
Regards,
Brian
On Sep 15, 2022, at 7:37 PM, Randy Hicks <randyhicks at me.com> wrote:
Yes Rick it i s very simple.
• Original Mats - No Deduction.
• Rubber like or close attempts to match original - Up to 10 Point
Deduction on Originality, 6 points Condition.
• Carpet - Up to 20 Point Deduction, 6 points Condition.
That is how I interrupt the Sprite Guidelines and Score Sheets.
Randy
On Sep 15, 2022, at 7:22 PM, HealeyRick <healeyrick at yahoo.com> wrote:
In my view we are making this a whole lot harder than it needs to be solely
because the extreme difficulty in finding the original floor coverings.
It's simple
There is only one original floor covering and those are the rubber mats
I've posted here (I think this may be Ben Kenion's car)
Carpet was never available on an AN5/early 6
If you have the original mats - no deduction
Anything else gets a deduction - whatever number of points is deemed
appropriate - whether it's loop or cut pile, it's not original .. period.
Hardura/vinyl/karvel/multi-colored deep shag carpet ... not original ...
period.
I can't point specifically to when the AMCO kit became available and don't
know if it was offered during production of the AN5/6. Someone would have
to show by contemporaneous advertisement etc that it was a "period
accessory". and even then, they would still need the rubber factory center
mat or face some kind of deduction.
If the supply or smoothcase transmissions dries up and become
"unavailable". would we say it's ok to put in a ribcase because it's close
or even a Datsun 5 speed because it was the only think available? If we
are going to be concours dogmatists we should stay domatic and not make
excuses for expedience. This coming from a Nasty Boy guy!
Rick
"Madman in a death machine" Follow My Nasty Boy Build:
http://tinyurl.com/yj52fwo
On Thursday, September 15, 2022 at 07:04:07 PM EDT, Rick Fisk <
refisk at chartermi.net> wrote:
Hi Randy,
I bought my red '59 AN5 in January 1968 and this was the biggest piece of
the rubber mats left at that time. Nine years in the California sun rotted
the mats away to crumbling dust. My blue '60 AN5 vintage racer still has
the complete door liners in place, but they have been painted and that may
have helped preserve them. That car was originally Leaf Green and it seems
to me that more of the green interiors have survived than the other colors.
Horler's book has some photos of the mats that kind sorta show the flat and
ribbed areas.
Rick
> On Sep 15, 2022, at 6:01 PM, Randy Hicks <randyhicks at me.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Guys, can someone send me some photos of Original Rubber Floor
Covering for the AN5?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Randy
<1960_Austin_Healey_Bug_Frog_Eye_Sprite_Survivor_Interior.jpeg>
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