[Healeys] Brake Problems

gradea1 at charter.net gradea1 at charter.net
Sun Apr 25 14:54:25 MDT 2021


Say, Bob, this is such a complex issue and so much discussion about
bleeding over the years. There is no simple solution on any of these
British cars. The system is minimal for the task required.
The one thing about the rusting you mention is actually the "battery
effect" of two dis-similar metals; the alloy cylinder and steel
fitting, so the anti seize maybe does address that issue thru
insulation. I have found that sometimes, unfortunately, only heat will
separate those components-same issue with the steel wheel cylinder
piston.
I recently wrote three articles for the Austin-Healey Magazine titled
"Give me a Brake" and the first article, in Feb/Mar issue, deals with
the 100 brakes. The second story will be out in the May/June issue
about masters, and the final is about BJ8 boosters.
I mentioned a few things in these articles-from bad experience-that
I'm sure you also found. I always use a flare nut wrench to try to
keep the flats, and I never attach the cylinder hard to its fixing
until I first cinch up the line...that way I can wiggle the unit as it
hand threads so as not to strip it. Those cylinders will strip just to
look at them!
Sure hope you find the solution, as that is one of the most fustrating
procedures on the Healey and a good reason why some even sold their
rides! Hank

	-----------------------------------------From: gradea1 at charter.net
To: "Bob Spidell"
Cc: "WILLIAM B LAWRENCE", "Healeys"
Sent: Sunday April 25 2021 10:46:12AM
Subject: Re: [Healeys] BN2 Brake Problem

 Ouh Oh, you might be on to something there. The early lines were AF
thread, later Girling, which could explain the difficulty in
fitting.(Taiwan might be metric) Don't use teflon tape, it melts with
brake fluid. Use the red grease supplied with NOS kits or get some
from Delco. Anti seize as you applied it is ok, but that will only
assist in removing and could contaminate the fluid, even if carefully
applied as you did. Use that on wheel splines. 
 You could be getting air at the threads of those new cylinders-hard
to see, but if you get any fluid on your finger its a sure bet. There
must be an opening to the atmosphere somewhere as all suggest. Damn
reproduction parts, and even though old and suspect, I like NOS
Girling if you can find any. Hank

	----------------------------------------- From: "Bob Spidell"
 To: gradea1 at charter.net
 Cc: "WILLIAM B LAWRENCE", "Healeys"
 Sent: Sunday April 25 2021 10:23:36AM
 Subject: Re: [Healeys] BN2 Brake Problem

 Hank,

 Good point. I'm on record being very 'anti-County,' having had hugely
disruptive failures with their water pumps. The two rears are
'no-name' so possibly County, and the one front cyl I put in is Moss
'Classic Gold,' so possibly County (IIRC, it said 'Taiwan' on the
box). The other three fronts are, AFAIK, original Girling with, yes,
probably seal kits from Moss (we redid the brakes during restoration,
and IIRC my dad did most of the work*). I'm loathing having to pull a
front drum and re-pack, shim etc. again but will do so if no other
solution works (I've already checked the rears for leaks). I did use a
'no-name' rear cyl on my BJ8, but so far it's given me no issues (that
I know of).

 *Side note: When I went to install one of the new rear cylinders the
fitting would not go in easily, even though I was extremely careful
not to cross-thread. Thinking I got a cyl with a bunged thread I
ordered another, and had the same problem! I finally realized that
when my dad rebuilt the brake system he used new steel lines, but
likely re-used the (steel) fittings (correct fittings are available,
but not common). On close inspection, the threads of the fitting were
rust-colored, and even when tested on the bench did not want to screw
in as easily as they should have. Even a thin coat of rust presents
high resistance to torquing so I've taken to putting a VERY thin
application of high-temp anti-seize on the threads ONLY (I can hear
the howls of 'heresy!' and "you're gonna die!" already ;). I use less
than a BB in size of anti-seize and put it nowhere near the sealing
surface, so contamination of the fluid, seal failures, etc. is
unlikely (I know of some owners who use teflon tape, but I could see
that conceivably posing a problem). Not only should this prevent
rust-galling of steel-steel threads, it should make the fittings much
easier to remove, so rounding out the nut is less likely. Seizing due
to rust shouldn't be an issue with cupro-nickel lines and brass
fittings. As usual, the interwebs are in violent disagreement on the
subject (examples):

  [1]
[2]https://www.camaros.net/threads/anti-seize-on-brake-fittings.462049/
[3]

  [4]
[5]https://www.hotrodders.com/threads/anti-seize-on-brake-line-fittings.174299/
[6]

 Bob

On 4/25/2021 9:49 AM, gradea1 at charter.net wrote:
 Bob-one troublesome word you mentioned in relation to the wheel
cylinders is "new." These must be the County Brand...spelled China. If
you did get lucky, and they are good cylinders, what about the other
three for the front? Rebuilt with Moss kits? I have seen the problem
with the seals being incorrect for the bore. For instance, on a Sprite
master, one push of the pedal stuck the seal in the rear of the casing
and never again to function. Replacement parts today are to be suspect
in an obscure issue like you are having. Sad Healey tales..Hank

	----------------------------------------- From: "Bob Spidell"
 To: "WILLIAM B LAWRENCE", "Healeys"
 Cc:
 Sent: Saturday April 24 2021 6:45:43PM
 Subject: Re: [Healeys] BN2 Brake Problem

 (non) progress report:

 Thinking Bill probably had the explanation, I clamped off the RF flex
line--the wheel I'd replaced the cylinder on--per Michael's suggestion
and, Voila!, a nice hard pedal. Thinking also that I hadn't expelled a
bubble, like Bill also suggested, I increased the pressure on my
pressure bleeding rig and bled all wheels again. Still, a nice hard
pedal, so I fired up my BJ8 to get it out of the garage so I could
pressure wash the undercarriage of the BN2 and take it (BJ8) for a
warm-up spin. Halfway around the 'block,' about 5 miles from home it
started running very rough so I pulled into a covid-closed restaurant
parking lot and popped the bonnet; coolant all over the passenger side
of the engine bay. It appears the gasket under the brass shut-off
valve for the heater hoses sprung a leak, so a call to AAA was in
order. After getting the BJ8 flat-bedded home I washed the 100's
underside, put on the new wheels and tires and hop in .. brake pedal
goes to the floor! Since I could get some brakes if I pumped the pedal
a couple times I took a chance on a short, abridged spin around a
smaller block--the new wheels and tires ride fantastic, and no
'scuttle shake' detected--then parked it.

 Thanks for all the suggestions, folks. I meant to try the
'hold-the-pedal-to-the-floor-with-a-board' technique, but by EOD I was
so beat I forgot. I've had trouble bleeding brakes on the BJ8, but the
BN2 has generally cooperated until now. Damned if I can explain why I
can get a good hard pedal, which proceeds to go soft from just
sitting. Good thing I love these cars.

 Bob

On 4/23/2021 9:06 PM, WILLIAM B LAWRENCE wrote:
   The problem with the double leading edge brakes on the 100s and
100-6s is that the bleeder screw is at a low point in the system so it
takes a little extra effort expel any entrained air. You probably got
a pretty good slug when you changed the wheel cylinder. Probably keep
bleeding that wheel and use various techniques until you find the one
that actually moves the air out of the bleeder.  
  Bill Lawrence  BN1 #554 
-------------------------
FROM: Healeys  on behalf of Bob Spidell via Healeys 
SENT: Saturday, April 24, 2021 3:04 AM
TO: Healeys 
SUBJECT: [Healeys] BN2 Brake Problem     Listers,

 I have a problem with my BN2's brakes that is driving (heh) me up the
 wall. Here's what I've done:

 - new shoes and cylinders in both rear wheels
 - one new cylinder in one front wheel (there's a total of 4 in the 2
 front wheels)
 - new master cylinder

 I hadn't touched the M/C, so after all the installs I just pressure
bled
 as I usually do (this has worked well on my BJ8 for decades and a
couple
 times for the BN2). At first, I got decent pedal then, after a period
of
 time I lost it; the pedal would go to the floor with only slight
 pressure (probably from the return springs). Thinking it could only
be
 the M/C, I sprung for a new TRW brand M/C but after installing it and
 bleeding I got the same results. I've put 2 full quarts of Castrol's
 finest 'synthetic' DoT4 through the system and tried vacuum bleeding
and
 old-fashioned 'pump and hold' method; same result for all methods.
I'm
 not losing fluid as far as I can tell, and the pedal will pump up a
bit
 with a half-dozen or so strokes, but will go back to the floor after
 some time.

 Any and all ideas and suggestions accepted and welcomed.

 TIA,
 Bob
 _______________________________________________

 

Links:
------
[1]
https://www.camaros.net/threads/anti-seize-on-brake-fittings.462049/
[2]
https://www.camaros.net/threads/anti-seize-on-brake-fittings.462049/
[3]
https://www.camaros.net/threads/anti-seize-on-brake-fittings.462049/
[4]
https://www.hotrodders.com/threads/anti-seize-on-brake-line-fittings.174299/
[5]
https://www.hotrodders.com/threads/anti-seize-on-brake-line-fittings.174299/
[6]
https://www.hotrodders.com/threads/anti-seize-on-brake-line-fittings.174299/

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