[Healeys] Four cylinder woes, part two!
David P
frogeye at porterscustom.com
Sat Mar 14 08:36:26 MDT 2020
Steven, this is starting to make us both crazy. You have proved, nearly
conclusively that the rings and valves are sealing. To be sure of those
findings do this. On the offending cylinder rotate the valves in the
guides to ascertain one of the heads isn't bent and only seals in one
particular position. Second bring the piston to near TDC and push on it
to see if it moves laterally more than intact rings would permit.
Compare with the other pistons. This might indicate a broken or weak
ring that doesn't show up under cranking. Lastly, yes a well worn cam
lobe would indicate insufficient time for cylinder filling. You might
also look in the radiator for air bubbles when cranking---another issue
for gasket failure. Healey 4cyl heads are notorious for leaking around
the cyl bores esp with a solid copper gasket. There is a gasket outfit
in Lubbock TX that can make individual rings, say 0.002-0.0025" to place
over the gasket to provide extra squish around the bores. PS always
check compression with the throttle wide open. DP
On 3/13/2020 5:42 PM, Michael Salter wrote:
> Bronze guides...
> https://www.netbug.net/blogmichael/2007/05/15/bronze-giudes-in-cast-iron-cylinder-heads/
>
> On Sat, Mar 14, 2020, 12:17 PM Steven Kingsbury via Healeys,
> <healeys at autox.team.net <mailto:healeys at autox.team.net>> wrote:
>
> This is the first I have ever heard about the bronze valve guides
> being crushed. I had always heard they were the better ones and
> they are by far the more expensive. Not that money and/or
> expensive makes something better. I have heard though, that they
> are better, so this is a surprise.
> And yes, I will be checking everything over with a fine tooth
> comb all this weekend. With the amount of carbon I found on the
> valves I am for sure going to be checking the piston rings even
> though the cylinder walls are quite pristine. The reason? Finding
> less than stellar workmanship in the previous work done of this
> engine, I just don't trust that the rings were done correctly to
> begin with and since I'm here, I'm going to check. Peace of mind
> will be well worth it.
> Steven
>
> On March 13, 2020 at 11:47 AM, WILLIAM B LAWRENCE <ynotink at msn.com
> <mailto:ynotink at msn.com>> wrote:
>
>> Another consideration is whether you have bronze valve guides in
>> an iron head. These can cause problems due to the different
>> thermal expansion rates of the materials. The iron can crush the
>> bronze and cause the valve to stick.
>>
>> Bill Lawrence
>> BN1 #554
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* Healeys <healeys-bounces at autox.team.net
>> <mailto:healeys-bounces at autox.team.net>> on behalf of Kees
>> Oudesluijs <coudesluijs at chello.nl <mailto:coudesluijs at chello.nl>>
>> *Sent:* Friday, March 13, 2020 8:19:28 AM
>> *To:* healeys at autox.team.net <mailto:healeys at autox.team.net>
>> <healeys at autox.team.net <mailto:healeys at autox.team.net>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Healeys] Four cylinder woes, part two!
>>
>> Measure the bores in several places first. If no significant wear
>> is apparent leave the pistons and rings well alone. Also look for
>> ridges near the top of the bores. If they are not present, wear
>> is not very likely. If the bores are fine, piston ring wear is
>> not likely. Valves do rock a bit in the guides. They need to,
>> they expand in the guides when the engine is running. You may or
>> may not use cap seals on the valve guides.
>>
>> If there is wear in the cylinders however have the block rebored
>> and fit new pistons and rings
>>
>> Burning some oil is nothing to worry about on the old engines.
>> When new 1ltr per 1000km (about 1 qrt per 500mls) was quite
>> permissible (after running in during which oil consumption could
>> be much higher). Check the crank case ventilation system, when
>> dirty/blocked it can be a cause of considerable oil consumption.
>> Anyway you probably loose most oil leaking. Overfilling the sump
>> is another cause of oil consumption as excessive oil will be
>> expelled through the crank case ventilation system
>>
>> The head should be dead straight but the surface does not need to
>> be super smooth. In most causes you can see feel the milling marks.
>>
>> Replacing the bearing shells and seals is good practice if the
>> bottom end comes apart. Does not cost an arm and a leg and if in
>> time you will save on grinding the crankshaft. Measure the crank
>> pins in various places and check if these are within limits.
>>
>> Kees Oudesluijs
>>
>>
>> Op 13-3-2020 om 00:29 schreef Steven Kingsbury via Healeys:
>>> Latest update, took the head to a friend's machine shop and took
>>> the valves out. All the intake vales had build up of soft
>>> carbon, a sign of burning oil I was told and I'm going to have
>>> to also pull the pistons to redo the rings. Fun, but I'm here,
>>> so why not? I'm also going to get new valve guides pressed in
>>> and replace the ones in the head as the valves seem to rock a
>>> bit going up and down. The head though is not warped and is
>>> straight, but I will get it checked out for cracks and resurface
>>> the head to make it super smooth.
>>> I'm also going to drop the pan, and push the pistons out of
>>> the block and replace the rings. And yes, I will plastiguage the
>>> crank to make sure it's in good shape and install new rod
>>> bearings when in there.
>>> I am also going to remove the tappet cover and take a good,
>>> hard, close up look at all the lifters to make sure that's not a
>>> problem. Right now, in for a penny, in for a pound. Sterling
>>> that is.
>>> Basically, I'm making sure everything is correct this time
>>> and then I will have no one but me to blame if it doesn't work.
>>> But all in all, it seems pretty simple. So stay tuned for
>>> further updates as they happen.
>>> Thanks for all the input, suggestions and guesses. This is
>>> actually quite the fun project.
>>> Steven Kingsbury
>>>
>>> On March 12, 2020 at 12:38 PM, John Harper
>>> <ah100register at gmail.com> <mailto:ah100register at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hank
>>>>
>>>> The fact that number 2 exhaust valve is not the same colour as
>>>> the others might be a clue. Maybe it is not closing fully? It
>>>> would be worth checking for a stuck valve guide, broken spring
>>>> or just lost clearance. A partially seized rocker is possible
>>>> but not likely. This may not be the problem but it would not
>>>> take much effort to pull the valve out and check for any
>>>> burning on the working face.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, 12 Mar 2020 at 18:18, <gradea1 at charter.net
>>>> <mailto:gradea1 at charter.net>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Steven-good to hear from you!
>>>>
>>>> That's a nice test, but I would magnaflux the head for
>>>> cracks between 2-3 and have it shaved flat..could be a head
>>>> gasket leak due to warped head...especially if valves and
>>>> rings checked good.
>>>>
>>>> Also, I don't recommend NGK plugs- use Champion
>>>> N-5...maybe cause of carbon on valves. Unless cam is flat,
>>>> valve spring broken or tappet rods bent/broken, problem is
>>>> in head-block fit.
>>>>
>>>> Regards, Hank Leach
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> From: "Steven Kingsbury via Healeys"
>>>> To: healeys at autox.teamnet <mailto:healeys at autox.teamnet>
>>>> Cc:
>>>> Sent: Thursday March 12 2020 9:40:25AM
>>>> Subject: [Healeys] Four cylinder woes, part two!
>>>>
>>>> Okay, here's the latest! I finally got to pull my head If
>>>> you remember, I had 155 lbs of pressure in cylinders 1, 3,
>>>> and 4 and only 25 lbs in cylinder number two. So with the
>>>> head off, I was prepared to find a problem with I flipped
>>>> it over to expose the valves, no such luck. Other than
>>>> number two exhaust valve being a bit black, no cracks,
>>>> nothing stuck and it looked fine. So then I went to look
>>>> into the cylinders themselves, walls smooth, flat high
>>>> compression pistons smooth, number three a bit rough on the
>>>> top, but other than that and good.
>>>> So then I went back to the head, put the spark plugs
>>>> back in and filled the combustion chambers with paint
>>>> thinner to see where it would leak out. Filled each chamber
>>>> evenly and waited. Twelve hours later, and other than
>>>> evaporation, no leaks! All chambers still even in their
>>>> fluid retention.
>>>> So then I rotated the crank to get all the pistons to an
>>>> almost even position and put paint thinner in the cylinders
>>>> at the same depth. No quick leak, not one cylinder faster
>>>> than the others and all the fluid finally drained out
>>>> smoothly and evenly in each cylinder.
>>>> I'm a bit stumped. My next step is taking the head to a
>>>> guy in town, an old machinist who builds his own engines
>>>> and runs his car at Bonneville in the 300 mph range. He
>>>> knows what he's doing and I'm sure he will give me some
>>>> sage advice and help. Also as a side note, I went over the
>>>> head with a magnifying glass and can see now cracks, but
>>>> that doesn't mean they are not there I know. I was just
>>>> thinking with a 100 pound plus difference, something would
>>>> be obvious.
>>>> I am also going to be taking off the tappet cover on the
>>>> side, inspect all the lifters and see what I can find
>>>> there. Like I said, I'm a bit perplexed, but I'm not done.
>>>> I will find something wrong! Here are some photos for you,
>>>> maybe you can see something I can't.
>>>>
>>>> IMG_20200311_143602.jpg
>>>> Here's the head, upside down and you can see the exhaust
>>>> valve on number two is blacker than the others, but no
>>>> cracks, chips, or visible damage.
>>>> IMG_20200311_172123.jpg
>>>> And here's the fluid I placed in the combustion chambers.
>>>> It didn't drain out and just sat there.
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Best wishes
>>>>
>>>> John Harper
>>>>
>>>> AHC UK 100 Register Secretary
>>>
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