[Healeys] bolt identification - another article

Sun Nov 25 10:37:35 MST 2018

Michael,

I agree with you. It's a sickness.

It took 20+ years to figure out the British strength rating codes!  I just
learned a new fact last night, there is a "Y" strength rating (80-90 tsi)
that I've never heard about before, and who really cares as it was probably
used on British Tanks or Battleships.

Cheers

C

On Sun, Nov 25, 2018 at 8:34 AM Michael Salter <michael.salter at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Curt I'm starting to become concerned about this addictive behavior with
> respect to fasteners  ... perhaps you should be considering seeking
> counseling 🤣🤣🤣
>
> On Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 1:45 AM Curtis Arndt <cnaarndt at gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Gentlemen,
>>
>> The Charles Falco article is somewhat dated, but overall is factually
>> correct if not complete.  I've personally spoken with Charles regarding
>> this article.  He is correct, it is common to find UNC bolts and studs used
>> where BSW threads were originally tapped.  I discuss this in my article
>> with regard to the generator link adjusting bolt on BN1/2 (possibly
>> 100-6's) and Bugeye Sprites.
>>
>> One of the biggest misconceptions that I've come across (even from Brits
>> that I know) is that *the only Whitworth fasteners* are BSW, and BSF,
>> BSP, BSPT, BSB, etc... and others are somehow NOT Whitworth.  Totally
>> untrue!  Whitworth is BY DEFINITION is...
>>
>>
>> *Whitworth Screw Thread Form: **A thread form and system of standard
>> sizes, proposed by Joseph Whitworth in 1841 and adopted as standard in the
>> U.K., having a flank angle of 55° and a rounded top (crest) and foot
>> (root). (Named after Sir Joseph Whitworth (1803--87), English engineer). *
>>
>>
>> As you can read, Whitworth is a thread form, and NOT a hex bolt/nut
>> size.  Note that this says NOTHING about hex head/spanner size.
>>
>> Case in point...The confusion has to do with bolt head sizing with regard
>> to certain other British fasteners such as BSC or BSCy - (British Standard
>> Cycle) and the older now obsolete CEI - (Cycle Engineers Institute} bolts,
>> that while they have Whitworth hex heads, are a thread form with a 60° thread
>> pitch angle, ergo not Whitworth.
>>
>> Are we confused yet?  Wikipedia also does not help the debate since they
>> incorrectly list BSC bolts as Whitworth, when technically they are not.
>>
>> *There will be a quiz *;-^)
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Curt
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 22, 2018 at 9:01 PM Mirek Sharp <m.g.sharp at sympatico.ca>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Here is another article (actually an old post from another forum) on
>>> British fasteners.  It is interesting but note that the author was not
>>> clear on the pipe threads, not distinguishing BSPP and BSPT, and provides
>>> somewhat dubious advice at the end about “making do” with UNC instead of
>>> the correct fastener.  My advice – use the correct threading system and
>>> grade of bolt.  Note, that despite my earlier tongue-in-cheek comments, the
>>> BA thread system is based on metric principles, but with the unavoidable
>>> English twist.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Cheers, Mirek
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Healeys [mailto:healeys-bounces at autox.team.net] *On Behalf Of *Curtis
>>> Arndt
>>> *Sent:* November-22-18 3:46 AM
>>> *To:* Michael Oritt
>>> *Cc:* John Vrugtman; Healey List
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Healeys] bolt identification
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> John,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Here is some more pertinent information that might help...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I've attached a copy of my 1957 vintage machinery Handbook which shows
>>> the various markings used to denote Whitworth from Unified fasteners.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Also an excerpt from one of my yet completed articles.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Curt
>>>
>>> *Error! Filename not specified.*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Nov 22, 2018 at 12:32 AM Curtis Arndt <cnaarndt at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> John,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Like most British bolts of the earlier part of last century, the Vendor
>>> name was printed on the bolt, e.g. Rubery-Owen or RO, Bees, Wiley, Woden
>>> and about 30+ others.  So to answer your question... BEES was the vendor.
>>> The bolt you refer to with an actual Bee on the head is a very early bolt,
>>> and is one that I have in my collection.  It most likely is a Whitworth
>>> bolt, either BSF (fine) or BSW (coarse).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The  "Rubery Owen B28-35" that you refer to is a "Mild" steel bolt,
>>> similar to an SAE Grade "2" US bolt.  The strength rating is "B" and the
>>> measurement is 28 to 35 tons per square inch or tons tensile.  The range
>>> refers to "yield" strength and "ultimate tensile" strength as described in
>>> my attached article.  FYI, multiply 28 or 35 times a ton and you'll get the
>>> strength in pounds, or psi... HOWEVER  we're talking British here, so it's
>>> not 2,000 pounds as in a US ton but 2,240 pounds as in a British Long Ton!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Along with the vendor name was the strength rating expressed as a letter
>>> which for *hi tensile* bolts was D, E, F and G prior to 1950 and
>>> changed to R, S, T,  U,  V,  W,  and X after 1950.  I have included
>>> (attached) my draft on British Strength rating codes decoded which I hope
>>> to officially publish on my blog site once it's up and running.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Also, the bolt heads were marked to differentiate Whitworth (BSW, BSF,
>>> etc...) from UNF and UNC once this new thread form system was phased in
>>> during the early 1950s.  For bolts, that was a "circular" depression on the
>>> head of the bolt which meant the bolt was a "Unified" versus a "Whitworth"
>>> thread form bolt.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I hope this helps and email me directly if you have any further
>>> questions.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Curt
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 9:01 PM Michael Oritt <michael.oritt at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi John--
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Check this out:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-2zllShyvv34/UQLGj7XqZjI/AAAAAAAAPUg/e1--MCxAPKY/s1600/Bee:1.jpg
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Happy Thanksgiving to you and Cindi.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best--Michael Oritt
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 10:19 PM John Vrugtman <javrugtman at htcnet.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubery_Owen
>>>
>>> Bees bolts seem to be very obscure, saw a picture of one, but no
>>> reference to the manufacturer
>>>
>>> On 11/21/2018 6:58 PM, warthodson at aol.com wrote:
>>>
>>> I was sorting thru a box of hardware & found two bolts that I cannot
>>> identify. They both are approx. 1/4" diameter. They both have the same
>>> thread per inch. According to my thread gage they are between 24 & 26 TPI.
>>> So call it 25 TPI. I do not have a metric thread gage to check them against.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> One is marked "Rubery Owen B28-35" on the head & measures about 5/8"
>>> long. The other is marked "BEES" & has a embossed emblem of a bee on the
>>> head & measures about 3/4" long. The lengths do not include the head, of
>>> course. No other markings on the heads.
>>>
>>> They will not accept a BSF nut, UNF or UNC nut or any metric nuts that I
>>> have.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Can anyone ID these for me?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Gary Hodson
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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