[Healeys] Water Pump
Oudesluys
coudesluijs at chello.nl
Sat Mar 7 03:48:26 MST 2015
Michael,
I am well aware how a water pump is constructed and that one needs at
least one ball bearing to absorb thrust. This should be on the vane side
as that is the bearing with the lesser load and where there is no
bending force on the shaft. I fitted the needle bearing on the pulley
side as that is where the higher load and bending force from the belt
tension is.
To be able to fit a ball bearing one has to reduce the diameter of the
shaft where the bearing is seated and press fit a bush on the shaft
which will also fit the vane after the bearing is fitted. This what I
did on the first JH pump I rebuilt about 35 yrs ago as I did not have
the resources for a new pump. I expect an AH water pump is not that much
different in construction.
I did not say it is a simple job but if you know how to work on a lathe
it is not overly difficult. And if one does not have a suitable
alternative of decent quality one should use a bit of ingenuity.
The carbon seal against the sealing face of the vane is available in a
variety of sizes. If one cannot get the exact size you can make up a
bush/sleeve or enlarge the diameter in the pump house for the depth of
the seal. It is imperative that you decide on the dimensions and that
you have all the parts needed before you start.
On my JH I would now use a water pump bearing and seal from an old slant
4 Vauxhall. It is an exact fit except for the length. After all is
fitted I have to shorten the shaft at the pulley end, no problem and NOS
Vauxhall pumps for extracting the needed parts are dirt cheap and
plentyfull available. I rebuild quite a number of JH/Lotus water pumps
this way.
I am surprised that no usable alternative has been found for the AH
pumps. I cannot imagine that there is no way of getting around the
problem. A slightly different outside diameter can be addressed to in a
rebuild by fitting a sleeve or reaming the housing and the same goes for
the shaft diameter/vane/pulley.
As for lubricating the bearings of a water pump, there is often some
mentioning about a certain amount of strokes of the grease gun in the
WSM or instruction manual. If you keep pumping until the grease oozes
out not only the seals will fail but very likely the bearings as well.
Best to use sealed for life bearings.
On the other hand the bearing on the vane side does not really need a
seal to keep out the dirt, excess of grease may exit through the leak
hole in the pump housing. This obviously would not be my preferred
solution though.
If I remember correctly the water pump on my Triumph Spitfire did not
have a proper seal at the pulley side either, just a dust shield plus a
load of old grease to keep the dirt out.
Cheers,
Kees Oudesluijs
NL
Michael Salter schreef op 6-3-2015 om 23:42:
> With all due respect Kees,
> Believe me replacing the bearing(s) and seal in a water pump of this
> type is far from as simple as you "imagine"...
> First the bearing ID and OD are such that no available ball bearing
> (required to absorb end thrust) is available.
> The original cartridge bearing uses the hardened shaft itself as the
> inner bearing race to produce a bearing small enough to fit in yet
> provide sufficient diameter for the pump shaft.
> Obviously a needle bearing would fit in but such bearings will not
> accommodate end thrust so would be useless in this application.
> The original cartridge bearings actually had a hole in the outer race
> to allow them to be lubricated in place but as is is so easy to inject
> too much grease and by so doing dislodge the end seals of the bearings
> the current practice is to make such bearings "sealed for life" such
> as in modern water pumps and alternators.
> Additionally the "seal" is not a typical "lip" oil seal. It is in fact
> a combination bellows and carbon plate style seal the carbon of which
> runs on the face of the impellor and must be capable of preventing
> cooling system pressure from forcing coolant past the seal without
> rapidly wearing away.
> As I keep saying; these components were developed over decades of
> trial and error with the hundreds of thousands of examples produced
> serving an exacting and rigorous "test bed". Anyone who thinks that
> they can do better than the engineers of the day without a
> substantial investment of both money and time is dreamin"..
> Michael S
> BN1 #174
>
> On Fri, Mar 6, 2015 at 9:25 PM, Oudesluys <coudesluijs at chello.nl
> <mailto:coudesluijs at chello.nl>> wrote:
>
> I would imagine that if you have access to a lathe it should not
> be to difficult to make up a shaft that will fit a sealed
> needle/roller bearing (pulley side) and a ball bearing (vane side)
> if both vane and pulley are in serviceable condition. The seal is
> not really difficult to replace even when the outside diameter is
> a bit smaller one can always fit a thin wall bush.
> You can even fit a grease nipple in the pump housing between the
> two bearings but you have to remove the bearing seals on the
> inside. I did so on a water pump of a daily driver Jensen Healey
> in the late 70's. The internal diameter of the needle bearing ring
> was slightly smaller than the internal diameter of the pulley so I
> had to make an extra bush to press on the shaft on which I could
> press the pulley, but it all worked well and lasted until the car
> was taken of the road about 60.000mls later.
>
> Kees Oudesluijs
>
>
>
> Alex schreef op 6-3-2015 om 0:00:
>> *My original 1967 Healey 3000 had a grease nipple on the pump.*
>> **
>> *== Alex in Maine
>> /"The Blue Mainie," 1960 Austin Healey 3000 BT7
>> "Conkling," 1946 M.G. TC #1321
>> Former owner 1957 A-H 100-6, 1967 A-H BJ8,
>> 1965 MG Midget ‹(•¿•)›
>> //http://ai2q.org//*
>> *//*
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> *From:* JOHN BAHE SR <mailto:johnbahesr at gmail.com>
>> *To:* Michael Salter <mailto:michaelsalter at gmail.com>
>> *Cc:* healeys <mailto:healeys at autox.team.net>
>> *Sent:* Thursday, March 05, 2015 5:13 PM
>> *Subject:* Re: [Healeys] Water Pump
>>
>> Michael,
>>
>> When I purchased my 1966 BJ8 it came with an extra water pump
>> that I was told was an original pump that had been rebuilt,
>> I assume your rebuild kits are for an original pump but I am
>> not sure how to tell an original 1966 BJ8 pump. The extra
>> pump I have is cast iron but does not have the opening that
>> shows the copper wire bearing retainer. The only number on
>> the pump is by the outlet and is 170836. Any help identifying
>> an original would be appreciated. Thanks for your time !!
>>
>> John
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 4:54 PM, Michael Salter
>> <michaelsalter at gmail.com <mailto:michaelsalter at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Fred,
>> The Massey-Ferguson engine is a derivation of the TR4 wet
>> sleeve 4 cylinder; or perhaps the other way around :-).
>> From memory the seal is the same as the later BJ7/8 pump
>> but as I recall although the bearing shaft is the same
>> length and diameter and the OD of the outer is the same
>> the overall length of the outer is shorter and the races
>> are closer together. I have a box of them somewhere back
>> in Canada.
>> I think that is the bearing that has been used in the
>> currently available repro pump..
>> I would imagine that it could be used made to work in an
>> original BJ7/8 pump but it is not designed for that
>> application and the loads on the bearings would be
>> substantially increased as a result of the races being
>> closer together.
>>
>> Michael S
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 6, 2015 at 1:13 AM, Fred Wescoe
>> <fredwescoe at gmail.com <mailto:fredwescoe at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Years ago, a water pump builder rebuilt my BJ7 water
>> pump and said the internals were the same as a Massey
>> Ferguson tractor.
>>
>> Fred
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 12:37 AM, WILLIAM B LAWRENCE
>> <ynotink at msn.com <mailto:ynotink at msn.com>> wrote:
>>
>> I understand that most of the Brits of the era
>> shared some parts with tractors, Triumph
>> especially. For that reason it's possible to
>> cross reference water pump repair kits in some
>> instances and source them from Tractor Supply
>> stores. It would be interesting to know if this
>> is true for the Austin 4s and 6s.
>>
>> Bill Lawrence
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> From: jmsdarch at sbcglobal.net
>> <mailto:jmsdarch at sbcglobal.net>
>> To: healeys at autox.team.net
>> <mailto:healeys at autox.team.net>
>> Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2015 09:18:24 -0800
>> Subject: Re: [Healeys] Water Pump
>>
>> Some parts, like the impeller seal, are hard to
>> get if you can find them at all.
>>
>> *From:*Healeys
>> [mailto:healeys-bounces at autox.team.net
>> <mailto:healeys-bounces at autox.team.net>] *On
>> Behalf Of *Adventure Limousine
>> *Sent:* Monday, March 2, 2015 6:16 AM
>> *To:* Magnus Karlsson
>> *Cc:* Healey Lista
>> *Subject:* Re: [Healeys] Water Pump
>>
>> With all of this talk about water pump quality,
>> has anyone considered rebuilding the original
>> pump with new bearings and seals? Just throwing
>> some gas on this fire.
>>
>>
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