[Fot] Starter Solenoid
Bill Babcock
ponobill at gmail.com
Mon Mar 27 15:55:57 MDT 2017
Yes, I was wrong, or more accurately—remembered incorrectly. The integral solenoid in the geared japanese starters most folks are using does indeed push the bendix part way into engagement and then the helical drag gear does the rest as the motor starts spinning. It is a high current relay though, and it should be all the relay necessary—you can operate these kind of starters with just a pushbutton. An additional relay might be desireable if you wanted the starter button to last a long time, but it’s just one more thing that could fail in a race car.
If you bypass the integral solenoid and power the starter with an external solenoid the start will still work, the helical drag gear will still pull the gear into engagement with the flywheel, but I suspect the engagement would do more damage to the gears than necessary. With the internal solenoid pushing the gear into partial engagement before the contactors close and the motor spins up there is less grinding. I’ve seen people use an external solenoid by jumpering the small starter lead to the power lead. The external solenoid then applies power to both the main and the integral solenoid. The starter motor still doesn’t get powered until the bendix is partly engaged.
The original Lucas starters have no such pre-engagement device. The bendix engages with the gear spinning, which is why the leading edge of the flywheel gear gets so chewed.
> On Mar 26, 2017, at 7:40 AM, Duncan Charlton <duncan.charlton54 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Oh, I see — you’re referring to an “inertia” starter motor.
>
> The "integral” solenoid I’m referring to is the type that’s mounted to a pre-engaged starter motor, thus “integrated” with the starter motor unit, ie: built-in. The ones I’ve disassembled had a piston inside that was moved by an electromagnet when the lead from the ignition switch provides 12V, and the piston simultaneously moves a linkage that shifts the bendix gear into position against the ring gear while closing the circuit on the two heavy contacts connecting the battery with the electric motor, causing it to spin.
>
> Duncan Charlton
> Elgin, Texas USA
>
>
>
>> On Mar 26, 2017, at 9:32 AM, Bill Babcock <ponobill at gmail.com <mailto:ponobill at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Ah, you’re thinking that the integrated solenoid makes the starter gear engage. no, it’s just a high-current relay—functionally identical to the separate solenoid the old Luca unit uses. I can’t think of a purpose to have a second solenoid—don’t know why they call that particular relay a Solenoid . The bendix engages by drag on a helical actuator. Purely mechanical in every starter I’ve ever seen.
>>
>>
>>> On Mar 26, 2017, at 5:18 AM, Duncan Charlton via Fot <fot at autox.team.net <mailto:fot at autox.team.net>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Your’re right — what I meant to say was that I shorted from the terminal with the incoming heavy lead to the small terminal that has the starter switch lead on it. That activates the solenoid rather than bypassing it, which likely simply spins the starter motor and doesn’t move the bendix.
>>>
>>> Duncan Charlton
>>> Elgin, Texas USA
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Mar 25, 2017, at 10:05 PM, Bill Babcock <ponobill at gmail.com <mailto:ponobill at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> If you short across the big terminals you eliminate the integrated solenoid.
>>>>
>>>> I have seen people bypass the integrated solenoid and use an external one, but my experience with the gear reduction starters is that they fail in the connection to the field coil, and rarely anywhere else.
>>>>> On Mar 25, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Duncan Charlton via Fot <fot at autox.team.net <mailto:fot at autox.team.net>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Unless…
>>>>>
>>>>> We’ve had two cars that had starting problems that were cured by using a second solenoid. The actual problem with both was most likely due to a voltage loss between the battery, the ignition switch and the starter solenoid.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Ford solenoid requires very low voltage (something like 2 volts) to engage, whereas the one on my (German) Opel 1900 and the one on the 1978 Datsun 280Z clearly required a lot more. I could short across the big terminals to get the car to start, so I knew the starter motor and the integrated solenoid were both good.
>>>>>
>>>>> Duncan Charlton
>>>>> Elgin, Texas USA
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mar 25, 2017, at 6:32 PM, Bill Babcock via Fot <fot at autox.team.net <mailto:fot at autox.team.net>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Are you guys not using the gear reduction starters? The built in solenoid in the starters is a very reliable part. If you’re using a solenoid to activate the solenoid, I think you have one too many.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mar 25, 2017, at 1:48 PM, Paul Ricco via Fot <fot at autox.team.net <mailto:fot at autox.team.net>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Napa auto parts has a part number ST51.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We went with as an emergency repair to replace a broken Lucas at the track on a Sunday. They were the only ones in the town open that had anything. The counter person spent an hour researching what they had that would work. It works. Very reliable.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think its actually for 60's era Ford trucks. The Tr4 does not seem to mind or be insulted by it any way.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Good Luck,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Paul
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mar 25, 2017, at 2:52 PM, Tony Drews via Fot <fot at autox.team.net <mailto:fot at autox.team.net>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I replaced my Lucas unit (with button) with one from the local Farm and Fleet. Has been dead reliable for 15 years.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Tony Drews
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> At 02:08 PM 3/25/2017, Bob Totten via Fot wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Group wisdom on Starter Solenoids for our Triumph's ?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Who sells the better quality Lucas (?) units as my starting problem has pointed to the solenoid is not functioning properly. Would also be interested in learning about any alternative brand that would be better in the long run. In 20 years of running my Spit my 5th unit is on the fritz or is that the life span for these things?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Curious,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Bob T
>>>>>>>>> '64 Spit GT autocrosser
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> PS I have inspected and tested the starter, and had it tested at the local Advance Auto Parts and it functions just fine(?).
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