[Fot] Gt6 differential failure

Tue Jul 14 21:43:38 MDT 2015

I've destroyed both in numerous quantities.
but same here; way more trans's
So, John: in fairness, (to clarify and explain) We suppose you are actually
right!
But only in terms of longevity.

A GT6 with a stock style (spring) clutch will never be a front runner. at
least in the group I run with.
Steve and I have always wanted to win (and several dudes who came before
us)...
A few of us Fot'ers own some of the fastest GT6's out there.
Steve Smith can take credit for some very advanced development of our GT6
marque.
I have been a life-long follower of the marque and have studied what works
in these cars for many years.

My point here is that if you want to go fast in GT6; a spring style clutch
is not the proper choice.
This particular development goes back to the early 1970's.
The dual disk clutch setup I have in BOTH my cars goes back to before TILTON
even existed.
When I inquired with Tilton about replacing my broken unit a few years ago
they said I likely had one of the first production dual disk units ever
made for this type car.
Probably from 1973 or 1974.
AP made them first; which eventually became Tilton.

The GT6 is strange animal.
Few really understand it.
It has a motor of supreme power compared to its Triumph predecessors.
But the rest of the car was essentially built with parts from earlier
Triumph cars.

That's why most of the fast ones have all kinds of trick and custom stuff...
because that's the only way to get that competitive edge with a GT6.

At the same time, that's why the GT6 gets a bad rap and has a limited
following,
Because the stuff it is made of was designed for cars that had way less
power.
They are fragile and a real challenge to keep them going quick.
>From the very beginning, If you wanted to go fast in a GT6 you had a tough
road ahead of you.

The factory teams that had unlimited parts for replacement; and did so
regularly.

For my part of the contribution to the GT6 Marque,
I made it my own strange quest to find and own two of the oldest and most
raced GT6's in this small historical niche.
Because I loved the fact (and needed the parts therein) that they have the
most ongoing and critical developments.

Now each one of my cars is copying the other one for better performance.
And I am continuing to make them both better.
And I can say with confidence (Not Withstanding Other Critical Developments)
It is good to have a dual Disk 7.25in Tilton Clutch.

Jason Ostrowski
Friendly Ghost Racing
1969 Triumph GT6+ Racecars

On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 7:57 PM, <gt6steve at aol.com> wrote:

> I started destroying the transmissions when I went to a solid clutch Not
> so much the diffs.  But I cant tell you how many races I ran with third
> gear teeth on the floor.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jason Ostrowski <jason at multivintage.com>
> To: John Hasty <jhasty at mhc-law.com>
> Cc: 'Friends of Triumph' Triumph <fot at autox.team.net>
> Sent: Tue, Jul 14, 2015 3:30 pm
> Subject: Re: [Fot] Gt6 differential failure
>
>  I disagree. For the GT6 race car if you want to go fast that is simply not
> true.
> Jason Ostrowski
> Friendly Ghost Racing
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Jul 14,
> 2015, at 3:56 PM, John Hasty <jhasty at mhc-law.com> wrote:
> >
> > Shock loading in
> road race conditions is why the guys at SPEC say you should use a clutch disc
> with springs
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > On Jul 14, 2015, at 4:19 PM, "Peter
> Vucinic" <pvucinic at netspace.net.au<mailto:pvucinic at netspace.net.au <pvucinic at netspace.net.au?>>> wrote:
> >
> >
> Scott,
> > To answer some of your questions.
> > Would lower oil temps stops ‘gear
> teeth breaking off’ Short answer NO. However, you should look at the
> differential as a complete system.
> >
> > If you had tooth failure It could be due
> to a number of things: -
> >
> > 1.       Long Term Use/Operation Fatigue Failure
> >
>
> > 2.       High instantaneous/shock loading Failure
> >
> > 3.       Improper
> backlash/clearances – Causing Tooth Failure as a result of incorrect tooth
> loading
> >
> > 4.       Improper lubrication/type/grade/flow/level/operating
> temperature
> >
> > The beauty of synthetic oils is that it allows the system to
> run at MUCH lower temperatures (And operate at higher temps of course) as a
> direct result of the synthetic oil being able to FLOW/POUR with less resistance.
> Just like mixing a cake! The thicker the mix, the higher the work load required
> to mix, the more friction, the hotter the mixing temps.
> >
> > The other side of
> the coin, in general, Synthetic is that is has LESS mechanical dampening for
> high shock loading than traditional mineral based oils for the same grade
> product. Even on synthetic engine oils you will see description such as ‘made
> for modern/tight clearances’ etc. etc. Reduced operating clearances and high oil
> shearing applications etc. is synthetics domain.
> >
> > So, when you look at the
> system as a whole. YES, it’s important to have the oil in its optimum
> temperature range. BUT all the other factors are equally important. The oil is
> not mutually exclusive in the equation.
> >
> > Hope that helps?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> >
> > From: Scott Janzen [mailto:sjanzen at me.com <sjanzen at me.com?>]
> > Sent: Tuesday, 14 July 2015
> 4:44 AM
> > To: Peter Vucinic
> > Cc: 'Jason Ostrowski'; ''Friends of Triumph'
> Triumph'
> > Subject: Re: [Fot] Gt6 differential failure
> >
> > so, while I respect
> the need proper operating temps, if the failure experienced is not bearing
> failure, but simply gear teeth breaking off under load, would lower temps
> help?
> > I run Redline synthetic.
> >
> > On Jul 13, 2015, at 2:32 PM, Peter Vucinic
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Get the oil temp down and use full synthetic.
> > I did much
> testing on my road going TR4 diff. Even a road car, at highway speed cruising,
> the oil temp is 180-200F.
> > With the diff ‘tucked up’ and limited air flow. You
> are starting with a problem before you start!
> >
> >
> > "You can Make a Small
> Fortune From Motor Racing. As long as You Started With A Lage Fortune!"
> > Kind
> Regards
> > Peter Vucinic
> > TR4 - TR7 V8 - Spitfire MkII
> >
> _______________________________________________
> >fot at autox.team.net<mailto:fot at autox.team.net <fot at autox.team.net?>>
> >
> >http://www.fot-racing.com<http://www.fot-racing.com/>
> >
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> >
> > From: Fot [mailto:fot-bounces at autox.team.net <fot-bounces at autox.team.net?>]
> On Behalf Of Scott Janzen
> > Sent: Tuesday, 14 July 2015 12:20 AM
> > To: Jason
> Ostrowski
> > Cc: 'Friends of Triumph' Triumph
> > Subject: Re: [Fot] Gt6
> differential failure
> >
> > thanks, Jason - yes, I was banging through the gears,
> and there's now a steep 150' +/- DROP at this track, downhill turn, where I was
> in second gear at 7,000 RPM, first accelerating, then letting it slow me down as
> I approached the sharp right to the uphill climb.  I'm sure that did not do the
> diff any good.
> >
> > Somehow the idea of putting a Subaru diff in this car does
> not feel very "vintage".
> >
> > Question - has anyone checked the oil temp, and
> would cooling make a difference?  I do run Redline 75-85 gear oil.
> >
> > I will
> report back and send carnage photos when I get it out.
> >
> > On Jul 13, 2015, at
> 10:12 AM, Jason Ostrowski wrote:
> >
> > I agree that it is consumable.
> > A change
> to something different would seem to lead to a redesign of all the parts that
> mate to it and that could turn into a whole new set of other related projects.
> >
> Likely a costly and complex endeavor to say the least.
> > Knowing you, I assume
> you are using a quality oil already as Steve recommends.
> > I notice you are
> racing faster lately and seem to be doing great with the car.
> >
> > Begin Public
> Service announcement to all FoT...
> >
> > That being said, (especially the faster
> you go) don't forget to remind yourself regularly about how you need to treat
> the drivetrain.
> > Perhaps most importantly on this issue is careful driving with
> a constant focus to smooth transition between the gears.
> > And really important
> is super smooth take-offs.
> > I'm lucky to have John Reed (best GT6 racer of all
> time) at the track with me most of the time.
> > He is never afraid to remind me
> of this.
> > And does so on a regular basis when I'm leaving the grid.
> > Even
> after all these years of coaching he will still often yell at me through my
> helmet prior to taking off.
> > something like....
> > "Ride that F$#&%ng clutch
> baby!!"
> > or "Easy take off".
> > Wisdom I'm not afraid to admit I need to be
> reminded of in a tense moment taking off to hit the track.
> > One slip of the
> foot or abrupt start is all it takes to do damage to the differential.
> > I can
> trace most of my differential failures back to sketchy shift transitions or
> abrupt starts...
> > We all hate to admit that an equipment failure is our own
> fault but, speaking for myself, I know it often is.
> > This was an FoT Public
> Service Announcement...
> > Brought to you by Friendly Ghost Racing.
> >
> > Jason
> Ostrowski
> > Friendly Ghost Racing
> > 1969 Triumph GT6+ Racecars
> >
> >
> > On Sun,
> Jul 12, 2015 at 7:01 AM, Scott Janzen <sjanzen at me.com<mailto:sjanzen at me.com <sjanzen at me.com?>>>
> wrote:
> > Mine disintegrated in a big way in the last race yesterday at Pitt
> Race. Last one did the same thing about 3-4 years ago.
> > Should I just consider
> this a consumable item, or swap to something stronger?  What are other vintage
> racers doing?
> >
> > Sent from my mobile device
> >
> _______________________________________________
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> >
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> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> > _______________________________________________
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> >
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