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It's not so much that it's important, Jonmac -- it really isn't. But it IS
interesting in the history of our cars.
There are numerous references to copper drive rivets being used to attach
FRE data plates to TR engines. This thread on the TR Register forum, for
example, shows photos of several examples. There's also some discussion of
engine color, too.
https://www.tr-register.co.uk/forums/index.php?/topic/68936-engine-colour/
On Mon, Jun 19, 2023 at 2:48=E2=80=AFPM John Macartney <johnbmacartney@gmx.=
com>
wrote:
> Hi, Don,
>
> That=E2=80=99s the plate which I think is suspect. That said, the FRE suf=
fix
> implies factory reconditioned engine. The fact the plate is riveted also =
is
> cause for speculation as its location is uncomfortably close to coolant
> passages and that=E2=80=99s something in itself which would make Engineer=
ing very
> twitchy. The golden rule was you never drilled holes in castings unless y=
ou
> wanted to tap into a coolant or oil feed. Penetrating those internal
> drilling=E2=80=99s by accident was not an option.
>
> Sadly, I don=E2=80=99t know now what changes may have occurred that far b=
ack in
> terms of what was genuine and what was not. Those of us in the company wh=
o
> were customer facing (I was one of them and company showroom based in
> London) underwent a raft of continuous training and procedural instructio=
n
> on so many aspects of the overall business, what was done, why, what was
> acceptable - and what wasn=E2=80=99t. There was a policy that those of us=
in the
> showroom were expected to be walking encyclopaedias on everything the
> company did in case we ever got asked. Believe me, we got asked a lot of
> questions on a huge array of issues. I do so wish I still had all those
> training notes, production cutover changes, service recall info,
> Engineering Change Bulletins and Service Bulletins but I finally ditched
> them at the time of my divorce in 1987. I=E2=80=99ve lost count of the nu=
mber of
> occasions since then when I deeply regret throwing them out!!!! I can=E2=
=80=99t and
> won=E2=80=99t argue with your photo evidence except to say I remember my =
mother=E2=80=99s
> 1954 Standard Eight saloon having a factory recon engine in 1957. The
> original unit blew out a core plug, lost all its coolant and then seized.
> That rebuilt unit was painted blue with a different number and no plate.
> That also applied to the hundreds of recon units I saw over the years - a=
nd
> that included the old side valve engines going back to the 1930s! I also
> well recall Dad was so disgusted with said engine that he took it out,
> stripped it right down and rebuilt it again to =E2=80=98as new=E2=80=99 p=
roduction spec.
> The car was still on the road with friends who bought it, as late as 1968
> and it was still painted blue.
>
> We=E2=80=99re now so far down the track, I doubt there=E2=80=99s anyone I=
know who is
> still alive who can provide a definitive answer which is a pity for the
> originality fraternity, especially on your side of the pond for whom such
> detail appears to be so important:)
>
> Sorry - but cheers, John
>
> On 19 Jun 2023, at 19:16, Don Hiscock <don.hiscock@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Which photo looks wonky to you, John?
>
> The one I posted earlier, this one...
> https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-XvTTKzN/0/26f8c2fc/O/i-XvTTKzN.jpg
>
> ...belongs to OFU198, a TR3 in long ownership by Bob LeBrocq in
> Leatherhead, Surrey.
> https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-7qMKXqm/0/e16da7ed/X5/i-7qMKXqm-X5.jp=
g
>
> Bob tells me he repainted the engine in black when he had it out a few
> years before I took that photo in 2015. And that he has no recollection =
at
> all of what color the block was before that!
>
> The engine with that plate have been in the car as long as he's had it --
> many, many decades, possibly since the early 1970s -- and he figures it w=
as
> installed in the 1960s. He's pretty sure it's a legit FRE unit.
>
> Whaddya think?
>
> Don
>
> On Mon, Jun 19, 2023 at 12:37=E2=80=AFPM John Macartney <johnbmacartney@g=
mx.com>
> wrote:
>
>> There=E2=80=99s been a picture during the recent life of this thread of =
what
>> appears to be a factory recon unit. A few aspects make me feel it=E2=80=
=99s not a
>> genuine example though I must stress the evidence is a tad circumstantia=
l.
>>
>> 1. The identity plate doesn=E2=80=99t look to be of the quality the comp=
any would
>> have approved. There=E2=80=99s something about it that looks a bit =E2=
=80=98amateur=E2=80=99.
>>
>> 2. As I=E2=80=99ve already commented in other posts, factory recon units=
(afaik)
>> never used the original engine number or a number that looks like it. It
>> was completely different, stamped where the original number would have
>> been, and not on a riveted plate.
>>
>> 3. There=E2=80=99s no evidence of the ubiquitous blue paint on the block=
or any
>> other part of the block within the reach of the camera lens.
>>
>> Sticking my neck out, I feel the engine we=E2=80=99ve seen was probably
>> reconditioned in the US or Canada, under a supply contract set up by
>> Standard=E2=80=99s national importer. Such a contract would allow an ide=
ntity
>> implying it was a =E2=80=98genuine=E2=80=99 part and with a warranty tha=
t the importer and
>> the authorised dealer network would have honoured.
>>
>> Sorry and wish I could be more specific but there=E2=80=99s too much on =
the pic
>> provided that doesn=E2=80=99t ring true to make that engine genuinely ap=
pear to be
>> a factory original recon unit. Hopefully the foregoing May provide those
>> who are model experts for concours judging with some useful background?
>>
>> Jonmac
>> ** triumphs@autox.team.net **
>>
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs
>> http://www.team.net/archive
>>
>> Unsubscribe/Manage:
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/don.hiscock@gmail.com
>>
>
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">It&=
#39;s not so much that it's important, Jonmac -- it really isn't.=
=C2=A0 But it IS interesting in the history of our cars.</div><div class=3D=
"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_def=
ault" style=3D"font-size:small">There are numerous references to copper dri=
ve rivets being used to attach FRE data plates to TR engines.=C2=A0 This th=
read on the TR Register forum, for example, shows photos of several example=
s. There's also some discussion of engine color, too.</div><div class=
=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small"><a href=3D"https://www.tr-regi=
ster.co.uk/forums/index.php?/topic/68936-engine-colour/">https://www.tr-reg=
ister.co.uk/forums/index.php?/topic/68936-engine-colour/</a><br></div></div=
><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mo=
n, Jun 19, 2023 at 2:48=E2=80=AFPM John Macartney <<a href=3D"mailto:joh=
nbmacartney@gmx.com">johnbmacartney@gmx.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1p=
x solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"lt=
r"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi, Don,</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=
=3D"ltr">That=E2=80=99s the plate which I think is suspect. That said, the =
FRE suffix implies factory reconditioned engine. The fact the plate is rive=
ted also is cause for speculation as its location is uncomfortably close to=
coolant passages and that=E2=80=99s something in itself which would make E=
ngineering very twitchy. The golden rule was you never drilled holes in cas=
tings unless you wanted to tap into a coolant or oil feed. Penetrating thos=
e internal drilling=E2=80=99s by accident was not an option.</div><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">Sadly, I don=E2=80=99t know now what ch=
anges may have occurred that far back in terms of what was genuine and what=
was not. Those of us in the company who were customer facing (I was one of=
them and company showroom based in London) underwent a raft of continuous =
training and procedural instruction on so many aspects of the overall busin=
ess, what was done, why, what was acceptable - and what wasn=E2=80=99t. The=
re was a policy that those of us in the showroom were expected to be walkin=
g encyclopaedias on everything the =C2=A0company did in case we ever got as=
ked. Believe me, we got asked a lot of questions on a huge array of issues.=
I do so wish I still had all those training notes, production cutover chan=
ges, service recall info, Engineering Change Bulletins and Service Bulletin=
s but I finally ditched them at the time of my divorce in 1987. I=E2=80=99v=
e lost count of the number of occasions since then when I deeply regret thr=
owing them out!!!! I can=E2=80=99t and won=E2=80=99t argue with your photo =
evidence except to say I remember my mother=E2=80=99s 1954 Standard Eight s=
aloon having a factory recon engine in 1957. The original unit blew out a c=
ore plug, lost all its coolant and then seized. That rebuilt unit was paint=
ed blue with a different number and no plate. That also applied to the hund=
reds of recon units I saw over the years - and that included the old side v=
alve engines going back to the 1930s! I also well recall Dad was so disgust=
ed with said engine that he took it out, stripped it right down and rebuilt=
it again to =E2=80=98as new=E2=80=99 production spec. The car was still on=
the road with friends who bought it, as late as 1968 and it was still pain=
ted blue.</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">We=E2=80=99re no=
w so far down the track, I doubt there=E2=80=99s anyone I know who is still=
alive who can provide a definitive answer which is a pity for the original=
ity fraternity, especially on your side of the pond for whom such detail ap=
pears to be so important:)</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr"=
>Sorry - but cheers, John</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br>On 19 Jun 2023, at 19:1=
6, Don Hiscock <<a href=3D"mailto:don.hiscock@gmail.com"; target=3D"_blan=
k">don.hiscock@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"ci=
te"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_=
default" style=3D"font-size:small">Which photo looks wonky to you, John?</d=
iv><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small"><br></div><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">The one I posted earlier, t=
his one...</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small"><a h=
ref=3D"https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-XvTTKzN/0/26f8c2fc/O/i-XvTTKzN.j=
pg" target=3D"_blank">https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-XvTTKzN/0/26f8c2f=
c/O/i-XvTTKzN.jpg</a><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-s=
ize:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small"=
>...belongs to OFU198, a TR3 in long ownership by Bob LeBrocq in Leatherhea=
d, Surrey.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small"><a h=
ref=3D"https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-7qMKXqm/0/e16da7ed/X5/i-7qMKXqm-=
X5.jpg" target=3D"_blank">https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-7qMKXqm/0/e16=
da7ed/X5/i-7qMKXqm-X5.jpg</a><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=
=3D"font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-s=
ize:small">Bob tells me he repainted the engine in black when he had it out=
a few years before I took that photo in 2015.=C2=A0 And that he has no rec=
ollection at all of what color the block was before that!</div><div class=
=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_=
default" style=3D"font-size:small">The engine with that plate have been in =
the car as long as he's had it -- many, many decades, possibly since th=
e early 1970s -- and he figures it was installed in the 1960s.=C2=A0 He'=
;s pretty sure it's a legit FRE=C2=A0unit.=C2=A0=C2=A0</div><div class=
=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_=
default" style=3D"font-size:small">Whaddya think?</div><div class=3D"gmail_=
default" style=3D"font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" s=
tyle=3D"font-size:small">Don</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div=
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, Jun 19, 2023 at 12:37=E2=80=AFPM =
John Macartney <<a href=3D"mailto:johnbmacartney@gmx.com"; target=3D"_bla=
nk">johnbmacartney@gmx.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,2=
04,204);padding-left:1ex">There=E2=80=99s been a picture during the recent =
life of this thread of what appears to be a factory recon unit. A few aspec=
ts make me feel it=E2=80=99s not a genuine example though I must stress the=
evidence is a tad circumstantial.<br>
<br>
1. The identity plate doesn=E2=80=99t look to be of the quality the company=
would have approved. There=E2=80=99s something about it that looks a bit =
=E2=80=98amateur=E2=80=99.<br>
<br>
2. As I=E2=80=99ve already commented in other posts, factory recon units (a=
faik) never used the original engine number or a number that looks like it.=
It was completely different, stamped where the original number would have =
been, and not on a riveted plate.<br>
<br>
3. There=E2=80=99s no evidence of the ubiquitous blue paint on the block or=
any other part of the block within the reach of the camera lens.<br>
<br>
Sticking my neck out, I feel the engine we=E2=80=99ve seen was probably rec=
onditioned in the US or Canada, under a supply contract set up by Standard=
=E2=80=99s national importer. Such a contract would allow an identity imply=
ing it was a =E2=80=98genuine=E2=80=99 part and with a warranty that the im=
porter and the authorised dealer network would have honoured.<br>
<br>
Sorry and wish I could be more specific but there=E2=80=99s too much on the=
pic provided that doesn=E2=80=99t ring true to make that engine genuinely =
appear to be a factory original recon unit. Hopefully the foregoing May pro=
vide those who are model experts for concours judging with some useful back=
ground?<br>
<br>
Jonmac<br>
** <a href=3D"mailto:triumphs@autox.team.net"; target=3D"_blank">triumphs@au=
tox.team.net</a> **<br>
<br>
et=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a><br>
Archive: <a href=3D"http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs"; rel=3D"noreferr=
er" target=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs</a>=C2=A0 <a h=
ref=3D"http://www.team.net/archive"; rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tp://www.team.net/archive</a><br>
<br>
hs/don.hiscock@gmail.com" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://autox=
.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/don.hiscock@gmail.com</a><br>
</blockquote></div></div>
</div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div>
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