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First off, let me say that if you don't have a flow meter, using the
hose/listening method works well enough for our primitive engines. But the
meter will provide greater accuracy. Sure putting the airflow meter effects
the flow through the carb (a bit) but we are not trying to get an absolute
calibration. We want a relative calibration and if both carbs behave the same
with the flow meter in place they are set the same. And that is the end result
desired.
Dave Massey
-----Original Message-----
From: ptegler <ptegler@verizon.net>
To: dave1massey <dave1massey@cs.com>; trguy75 <trguy75@gmail.com>; triumphs
<triumphs@autox.team.net>
Sent: Tue, Oct 16, 2018 11:27 am
Subject: Re: [TR] 61 TR3A SU H6 Carb Issues
agreed.... especially considering that no one stated the human ear was 'better'
than an instrument. BUT.....
Take a look at any procedure for multiple carbs (greater than two) EG: quads
on a bike or 8/12 carbs on a Ferrari. ...even three DCOEs on a Triumph 6
NONE suggest a flow meter blocking the intake. On most bike engines you use
multiple water columns via taps on the sides of the carbs specifically designed
to facilitate balancing. Compared to most LBC's none have a balance port in the
intake manifold so no 'cross contamination ' from air flow via another carb.
Block one of four bike carbs and the engine will slow very noticeably.
sure the 'premise' is you block both carbs (one at a time) but neither is 'as
is' when running. When you place the meter over the carb throat you change the
depression and running position of the piston in the throat. Air volume vs
velocity is changed...effecting the carb operations, both air AND fuel. when
you slow down the air velocity it doesn't pull as much fuel, and starts
consuming air from the other carb via the balance port in the manifold etc etc.
You need to use whatever method best suites your sensibilities. As too the
repercussions of you procedures. Each case is different, each case has
different expediencies, habits and results :-)
ptegler
-----Original Message-----
From: DAVID MASSEY <dave1massey@cs.com>
To: ptegler <ptegler@verizon.net>; trguy75 <trguy75@gmail.com>; triumphs
<triumphs@autox.team.net>
Sent: Tue, Oct 16, 2018 7:34 am
Subject: Re: [TR] 61 TR3A SU H6 Carb Issues
Seriously though.... what method didyou use to balance the air flow at
idle? One of those little flow meters?
NOPE NADA STOP right there. Think about it...you're sealing off
the air to get the bubble to rise so of course the idle changes....so the
balance tube in the manifold sucks from the other carb, bypassing the fuel
pull.
What are you talking about? Sure you affect airflow with the airflow meter
but you are affecting both carbs equally when you switch from carb to carb. If
you get the same reading from both they are being effected the same and have
the same starting point. The concept that the human ear is better than an
instrument specifically designed to measure airflow is pure hubris.
One thing to watch out for is assuming that since the carbs are balanced at
idle they are balanced under throttle. Be very careful when tightening down
the linkage to ensure that both carbs open simultaneously. This is
particularly important on the TR6-style linkage that has built-in disengagement
zones.
Dave Massey
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Tegler <ptegler@verizon.net>
To: Jim Henningsen <trguy75@gmail.com>; triumphs <triumphs@autox.team.net>
Sent: Tue, Oct 16, 2018 3:16 am
Subject: Re: [TR] 61 TR3A SU H6 Carb Issues
ok....what do you mean by 'carbs aren't running smoothly' ?
Engine is not smooth?.. sputtering? not running smooth while cruising?
An old adage.... (well two actually)
"..most carb problems are electrical..." and "..most ignition
problems are the carbs"
Seriously though.... what method didyou use to balance the air flow at
idle? One of those little flow meters?
NOPE NADA STOP right there. Think about it...you're sealing off
the air to get the bubble to rise so of course the idle changes....so the
balance tube in the manifold sucks from the other carb, bypassing the fuel
pull.
I was finally convinced by an old mechanic and have learned from tuning
more SU and ZS carbs than I care to mention.... use a 1/4" fuel line as a
stethoscope ...one end in your ear..the other just up against the edge
(not in) the carb throat. blocks minimal air... and believe me you can
hear as little 1-2 cfm readily, but you can also hear the gurgle of the
fuel flow! Years ago I actually gave away my flow gauges.
Eons ago..I got so fed up once I bought brand new NOS SU carbs to replace
mine after three rebuilds of the orig units. BUT...STILL had the same
issue...smooth speed cruising and it ran like crap. Pull the choke out and
it ran fine, but had to push it in at closed or low speed throttle. Spent
a year+ and hundreds of messages on various LBC lists....still to no
avail. Than one day at a car show.... I saw a guy with an identical
setup.... open big round K&Ns and a end plate but had his air filters
nearly 3/4 closed off with duct tape. In the end, the problem was
incorrect vacuum effects ...not enough air velocity when the piston was
mid/down as there was no restriction from the air filters.
hhmmm.... ok...
http://www.teglerizer.com/mgstuff/a_stumble_at_cruise.htm
ptegler
On 10/15/2018 7:40 PM, Jim Henningsen wrote:
Ok, I thought I had this rebuild all nailed down. Finally got around to
getting carbs balanced and set for correct mixture. After new kits, testing
piston drop timing per John Twist you tube clip (great clip), and spending
two hours fine tuning air flow and mixture. The carbs aren't running
smoothly. There is something not right and I am throwing in the towel.
Don't have a reliable mechanic that I trust for this in Ocala. Any
recommendations on a rebuilder to send these two to have them checked
professionally.
Joe Curto?
Jeff Payla at Paltech - cant seem to get a response from him.
Buy new (ouch)
Others?
Thanks in advance
Jim Henningsen
Ocala FL
61 TR3A eager to enjoy driving it in fall in Florida
62 TR4 eager to have restoration finished
75 TR6 eager to have new race motor put in
82 Jeep ld reliable - get in and go
2002 Triumph Trophy 1200 eager to just get out and be used.
** triumphs@autox.team.net **
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs http://www.team.net/archive
--
Paul Tegler
ptegler@verizon.net www.teglerizer.com
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<font color='black' size='3' face='Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif'>
<div> <font size="3">First off, let me say that if you don't have a flow meter,
using the hose/listening method works well enough for our primitive
engines. But the meter will provide greater accuracy. Sure putting
the airflow meter effects the flow through the carb (a bit) but we are not
trying to get an absolute calibration. We want a relative calibration and
if both carbs behave the same with the flow meter in place they are set the
same. And that is the end result desired.</font><br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div style="clear:both"><font size="4">Dave Massey</font><br>
<br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div
style="font-family:arial,helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black">-----Original
Message-----<br>
From: ptegler <ptegler@verizon.net><br>
To: dave1massey <dave1massey@cs.com>; trguy75 <trguy75@gmail.com>;
triumphs <triumphs@autox.team.net><br>
Sent: Tue, Oct 16, 2018 11:27 am<br>
Subject: Re: [TR] 61 TR3A SU H6 Carb Issues<br>
<br>
<div id="AOLMsgPart_2_521494f6-2019-4a88-8cfa-6c3a2bf680f9">
<div class="aolReplacedBody">
<div style="font-size:10pt;font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;color:black;">
<div
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:black;">agreed....
especially considering that no one stated the human ear was 'better' than an
instrument. BUT.....<br>
Take
a look at any procedure for multiple carbs (greater than two) EG:
quads on a bike or 8/12 carbs on a Ferrari. ...even three DCOEs on a
Triumph 6<br>
NONE suggest a flow meter blocking the intake. On most
bike engines you use multiple water columns via taps on the sides of the
carbs specifically designed to facilitate balancing. Compared to most
LBC's none have a balance port in the intake manifold so no 'cross
contamination ' from air flow via another carb. Block one of four bike
carbs and the engine will slow very noticeably.<br>
<br>
sure the
'premise' is you block both carbs (one at a time) but neither is 'as is'
when running. When you place the meter over the carb throat you change
the depression and running position of the piston in the throat. Air
volume vs velocity is changed...effecting the carb operations, both air
AND fuel. when you slow down the air velocity it doesn't pull as much
fuel, and starts consuming air from the other carb via the balance port
in the manifold etc etc. <br>
<br>
You need to use whatever method best
suites your sensibilities. As too the repercussions of you procedures.
Each case is different, each case has different expediencies, habits and
results :-)<br>
<br>
ptegler<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: DAVID MASSEY <<a
removedlink__10e473d8-cb03-4af3-adba-32298f995911__href="mailto:dave1massey@cs.com";>dave1massey@cs.com</a>><br>
To: ptegler <<a
removedlink__10e473d8-cb03-4af3-adba-32298f995911__href="mailto:ptegler@verizon.net";>ptegler@verizon.net</a>>;
trguy75 <<a
removedlink__10e473d8-cb03-4af3-adba-32298f995911__href="mailto:trguy75@gmail.com";>trguy75@gmail.com</a>>;
triumphs <<a
removedlink__10e473d8-cb03-4af3-adba-32298f995911__href="mailto:triumphs@autox.team.net";>triumphs@autox.team.net</a>><br>
Sent: Tue, Oct 16, 2018 7:34 am<br>
Subject: Re: [TR] 61 TR3A SU H6 Carb Issues<br>
<br>
</div>
<div id="aolmail_yiv6500343243">
<div><span style="color: black; font-family: Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;
font-size: medium;">
</span>
<div> <br clear="none">
</div>
<div style="font-family:arial,
helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black;"><blockquote style="border-left:2px solid
blue;padding-left:3px;">
<div>Seriously though.... what method didyou use to balance the air
flow at idle? One of those little flow meters?<br clear="none">
NOPE NADA STOP right there. Think about it...you're sealing
off
the air to get the bubble to rise so of course the idle
changes....so the balance tube in the manifold sucks from the
other carb, bypassing the fuel pull.</div>
<div></div>
</blockquote></div>
<div> <br clear="none">
</div>
<div> <span style="font-size: medium;">What are you talking about? Sure
you affect airflow with the airflow meter but you are affecting both carbs
equally when you switch from carb to carb. If you get the same reading
from both they are being effected the same and have the same starting
point. The concept that the human ear is better than an instrument
specifically designed to measure airflow is pure hubris.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size: medium;"><br clear="none">
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size: medium;">One thing to watch out for is assuming
that since the carbs are balanced at idle they are balanced under
throttle. Be very careful when tightening down the linkage to ensure that
both carbs open simultaneously. This is particularly important on the
TR6-style linkage that has built-in disengagement zones.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size: medium;"><br clear="none">
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size: medium;"></span><br clear="none">
</div>
<div style="clear:both;"><span style="font-size: large;">Dave Massey</span><br
clear="none">
<br clear="none">
</div>
<div> <br clear="none">
</div>
<div> <br clear="none">
</div>
<div class="aolmail_yiv6500343243yqt2701170847"
id="aolmail_yiv6500343243yqt08724">
<div style="font-family:arial,
helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black;">-----Original Message-----<br
clear="none">
From: Paul Tegler <<a
removedlink__10e473d8-cb03-4af3-adba-32298f995911__href="mailto:ptegler@verizon.net";>ptegler@verizon.net</a>><br
clear="none">
To: Jim Henningsen <<a
removedlink__10e473d8-cb03-4af3-adba-32298f995911__href="mailto:trguy75@gmail.com";>trguy75@gmail.com</a>>;
triumphs <<a
removedlink__10e473d8-cb03-4af3-adba-32298f995911__href="mailto:triumphs@autox.team.net";>triumphs@autox.team.net</a>><br
clear="none">
Sent: Tue, Oct 16, 2018 3:16 am<br clear="none">
Subject: Re: [TR] 61 TR3A SU H6 Carb Issues<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<div
id="aolmail_yiv6500343243AOLMsgPart_1.2_b3d72249-8701-4264-8a12-6cac1217176c">
<div class="aolmail_yiv6500343243aolReplacedBody">
<div>ok....what do you mean by 'carbs aren't running smoothly' ?</div>
<div>Engine is not smooth?.. sputtering? not running smooth while
cruising?</div>
<div>An old adage.... (well two actually)<br clear="none">
"..most carb problems are electrical..." and "..most ignition
problems are the carbs"</div>
<div>Seriously though.... what method didyou use to balance the air
flow at idle? One of those little flow meters?<br clear="none">
NOPE NADA STOP right there. Think about it...you're sealing
off
the air to get the bubble to rise so of course the idle
changes....so the balance tube in the manifold sucks from the
other carb, bypassing the fuel pull.</div>
<div>I was finally convinced by an old mechanic and have learned from
tuning more SU and ZS carbs than I care to mention.... use a 1/4"
fuel line as a stethoscope ...one end in your ear..the other just
up against the edge (not in) the carb throat. blocks minimal
air... and believe me you can hear as little 1-2 cfm readily, but
you can also hear the gurgle of the fuel flow! Years ago I
actually gave away my flow gauges.</div>
<div>Eons ago..I got so fed up once I bought brand new NOS SU carbs to
replace mine after three rebuilds of the orig units. BUT...STILL
had the same issue...smooth speed cruising and it ran like crap.
Pull the choke out and it ran fine, but had to push it in at
closed or low speed throttle. Spent a year+ and hundreds of
messages on various LBC lists....still to no avail. Than one day
at a car show.... I saw a guy with an identical setup.... open big
round K&Ns and a end plate but had his air filters nearly 3/4
closed off with duct tape. In the end, the problem was incorrect
vacuum effects ...not enough air velocity when the piston was
mid/down as there was no restriction from the air filters.</div>
<div>hhmmm.... ok...<br clear="none">
<a rel="nofollow"
shape="rect">http://www.teglerizer.com/mgstuff/a_stumble_at_cruise.htm</a><br>
</div>
<div><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect"><br clear="none">
</a><br>
</div>
<div><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect">ptegler</a><br clear="none">
</div>
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
<br clear="none">
<div class="aolmail_yiv6500343243aolmail_moz-cite-prefix">On 10/15/2018 7:40
PM, Jim Henningsen
wrote:<br clear="none">
</div>
<blockquote>
<pre>Ok, I thought I had this rebuild all nailed down. Finally got
around to
getting carbs balanced and set for correct mixture. After new kits, testing
piston drop timing per John Twist you tube clip (great clip), and spending
two hours fine tuning air flow and mixture. The carbs aren't running
smoothly. There is something not right and I am throwing in the towel.
Don't have a reliable mechanic that I trust for this in Ocala. Any
recommendations on a rebuilder to send these two to have them checked
professionally.
Joe Curto?
Jeff Payla at Paltech - cant seem to get a response from him.
Buy new (ouch)
Others?
Thanks in advance
Jim Henningsen
Ocala FL
61 TR3A eager to enjoy driving it in fall in Florida
62 TR4 eager to have restoration finished
75 TR6 eager to have new race motor put in
82 Jeep ld reliable - get in and go
2002 Triumph Trophy 1200 eager to just get out and be used.
** <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect"
class="aolmail_yiv6500343243aolmail_moz-txt-link-abbreviated">triumphs@autox.team.net</a>
**
Archive: <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect"
class="aolmail_yiv6500343243aolmail_moz-txt-link-freetext">http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs</a>
<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect"
class="aolmail_yiv6500343243aolmail_moz-txt-link-freetext">http://www.team.net/archive</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br clear="none">
<pre class="aolmail_yiv6500343243aolmail_moz-signature">--
Paul Tegler
<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect"
class="aolmail_yiv6500343243aolmail_moz-txt-link-abbreviated">ptegler@verizon.net</a>
<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect"
class="aolmail_yiv6500343243aolmail_moz-txt-link-abbreviated">www.teglerizer.com</a><br>
</pre>
</div>
</div>
<br clear="none">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</font>
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** triumphs@autox.team.net **
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs http://www.team.net/archive
--===============3856286595693688417==--
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