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Re: Re[4]: Hot Tigers

To: nicholsj@oakwood.org
Subject: Re: Re[4]: Hot Tigers
From: rpalmer@ames.ucsd.edu (Bob Palmer)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 97 09:41:34 PDT
Jeff,

Using far too much starch in your shorts I suspect.  You also have my 
blessing to trash my e-mail without reading it if you find it too long, 
boring, insipid, etc.

Pope Bob

>     
>     'So all right Jeff, you have my permission and even blessing to leave 
>     in your 160 degree thermostat, at least till September 22 (the end of 
>     summer).  You might even consider applying the $5 dollars for a new 
>     thermostat towards the purchase of a more significant piece of 
>     hardware; like a better fan, full shroud, etc.'
>     
>     
>     Thank you, Pope Bob, for your blessing to use a 160 thermostat.  May 
>     you be blessed in return, with a cool solution for your hot Tiger. 
>     Your suggestion of what to do with $5 is noted but is not needed in my 
>     case.  On the other hand, I can think of a few imaginative ways you 
>     can personally use $5.  By the way, in my garage is a used 195 
>     thermostat that I would like to donate to you for your car. 
>     
>     
>     Jeff
>     
>     
>     P.S. You write too much in your emails.
>     
>     
>     
>     
>______________________________ Reply Separator 
_________________________________
>Subject: Re: Re[2]: Hot Tigers
>Author:  rpalmer@ames.ucsd.edu (Bob Palmer) at INTERNET 
>Date:    9/5/97 3:04 PM
>     
>     
>Jeff,
>     
>The things you offer certainly are worthy of some consideration.  My previous 
>hyperbole was just to stir things up a little with regard to thermostats 
>vis-a-vis the overall problem.  Obviously I don't think using a 160 versus a 
>195 thermostat would buy you anything in the hot day in L.A. scenario I 
>described.  In that case you would be quite happy to have the engine maintain 
>anything like 215F.  And by the way, what's your theory as to how the opening 
>of the thermostat relates to cooling capacity?  I guess according to the less 
>flow is better school, the thermostat ought to start in the open position and 
>close as it gets hotter.  Even if we subscribe to the more is better school, 
>we still don't know how much it helps to be more open.  The implication from 
>the way you present it is that thermostat has to be fully open to be fully 
>effective.  I doubt this is really the case.  I'll bet that within 5 degrees 
>or so it goes from closed to full on.  Just seems to work this way in my case 
>because the water temperature seems to track the air temperature so close once 
>it gets just a little over the nominal thermostat temp.
>     
>I know that for most people the choice of thermostat is probably driven more 
>by emotion than reality and I don't really expect you or anyone else to go 
>pull their 160 units and put in a 195 just because I said to.  What I really 
>hope for is to redirect some of this thinking and effort into more useful 
>channels.  There are a lot of Tiger owners out there with very cool running 
>cars.  Pecentage wise, I think it's a lot better than 15-20 years ago when it 
>seemed that virtually every Tiger, including mine, had some degree of cooling 
>problem.  I think the path to a cool running Tiger is now pretty well worn.  
>It starts with how you build your engine (not too tight), and includes a good 
>radiator, shroud, fan, and water pump.  Cullen Bennett is one of those that 
>has been able to push his Tiger's cooling capacity to the extreme.  He has to 
>be given a lot of credit for being able to not only keep 
>his engine cool in the Arizona sun, but do it while running an air conditioner.
>     
>So all right Jeff, you have my permission and even blessing to leave in your 
>160 degree thermostat, at least till September 22 (the end of summer).  You 
>might even consider applying the $5 dollars for a new thermostat towards the 
>purchase of a more significant piece of hardware; like a better fan, full 
>shroud, etc.
>     
>Bob
>     
>     
>>      "In this kind of situation, it doesn't matter if you have a 160 
>>     degree thermostat and how much of the time your engine has spent 
>>     running at this temperature.  This theory is sort of like running your 
>>     air conditioner and freezing your butt all winter long because in the 
>>     summer when it gets hot and you really need it, the air conditioner 
>>     roles over and dies.  Some people seem to think they're putting all 
>>     their cold time in the bank so they can draw on it when they need it I 
>>     guess.  This is just some of my sarcasm regarding using a cold 
>>     thermostat; i.e., less than 180 degrees.  195 is actually probably 
>>     ideal in terms of engine performance and longevity."
>>     
>>     Bob
>>     
>>     A few things to consider:
>>     
>>     1) The shop manual recommends a 160F thermostat for summer and a  190 
>>     for winter.
>>     2) A 160F thermostat starts to open at 160 and is fully open at 180.  
>>     A 195F starts to open at 195 and is completely open at 215. If you are 
>>     worried about a marginal cooling system which one would you choose, 
>>     160 or 195?
>>     3) Changing a thermostat is the cheapest change you can make, less 
>>     than $5.00.  If it doesn't work, put the 195 back in and you are not 
>>     out of too much $$$. 
>>     
>>     Jeff
>>
>>
>>______________________________ Reply Separator 
>_________________________________
>>Subject: Re: Hot Tigers
>>Author:  rpalmer@ames.ucsd.edu (Bob Palmer) at INTERNET 
>>Date:    9/3/97 11:02 AM
>>
>>
>>Jeff,
>>     
>>A lot of us, me included use a Gano filter in the upper hose to keep the 
>>"klinkers" out of the radiator.  I check it every so often and clean out 
>>some debris that otherwise might have closgged the radiator.  It's easier to 
>>clean it out of the filter than out of the radiator.  If you engine is 
>>thirty-five years old and hasn't been boiled, acid dipped, etc.  then there 
>>can be a lot of bad stuff coming out of the engine.  I know one Tiger owner 
>>in particular for whom this is a royal pain; he's constantly having to clean 
>>out the filter.  I was talking with Tom Ballou and one of his many good 
>>ideas was to pump phosphoric acid through the block for awhile until it came 
>>clean.  I suggested maybe adding a little muriatic (aka hydrochloric), but 
>>Tom thought this was too aggressive.  He's probably right.   If you could 
>>get ahold of an acid pump, you could pump it through your motor just as it 
>>sits in the car.  In this case, with all the aluminum involved, I'd 
>>definitely use only phophoric, which is actually a quite mild acid.  In fact 
>>you find it as an ingredient in soda pops like coke, etc.  This is why a 
>>pennywill get bright if you soak it in coke for awhile.  Let's see, maybe if 
>>we flush our cooling system with coke it will come out really well!
>>     
>>So why did you think you wanted to own a Tiger?  It's all these problems we 
>>share that forms the basis for the "bonding experiences" that bring us 
>>closer together.  How can you beat, for example, the experience of a dozen 
>>or so Tigers caravaning on a hot summer day through L.A.  in stop-and-go 
>>traffic?  What better way to build empathy, comaraderie, etc. etc.   In this 
>>kind of situation, it doesn't matter if you have a 160 degree thermostat and 
>>how much of the time your engine has spent running at this temperature.  
>>This theory is sort of like running your air conditioner and freezing your 
>>butt all winter long because in the summer when it gets hot and you really 
>>need it, the air conditioner roles over and dies.  Some people seem to think 
>>they're putting all their cold time in the bank so they can draw on it when 
>>they need it I guess.  This is just some of my sarcasm regarding using a 
>>cold thermostat; i.e., less than 180 degrees.  195 is actually probably 
>>ideal in terms of engine performance and longevity.  If you think you will 
>>ever face the problem of being stuck in traffic on a hot day, and it's hard 
>>to guarantee you won't, then get a REALLY BIG FAN, either electric or 
>>mechanical or both.  Then, if your engine stays cool when you're moving, it 
>>will also stay cool when you're not.  
>>Just a perverse thought regarding this problem vis-avis Tigers United:  How 
>>about a trophy for cool running.  We'll just park all our cars in the hot 
>>sun  and leave them idling.  The last one left running wins.
>>     
>>Bob
>>     
>>>     I was over a friends house this weekend and was asking him about a new 
>>>     radiator that he put in his Mustang.  He said it helped but was still 
>>>     overheating.  He opened the hood and the first thing I noticed was the 
>>>     absence of a shroud, but was really curious to me and I had never seen 
>>>     before was filter installed in the upper radiator hose.
>>>     
>>>     Told him about the slow flow vs. fast discussions we've been having.  
>>>     Has anyone ever seen one of these items?  And why would a "filter" be 
>>>     necessary?  Geez, until I owned the Tiger, the only cooling advise I 
>>>     ever heard was flush the system and 50% antifreeze/50% water!
>>>     
>>>     JCarter
>>>
>>>
>>>______________________________ Reply Separator 
>>_________________________________
>>>Subject: Re: Hot Tigers
>>>Author:  Non-HP-rpalmer (rpalmer@ames.ucsd.edu) at HP-ColSprings,mimegw5 
>>>Date:    9/3/97 8:59 AM
>>>
>>>
>>>Nice to hear a little more about this monster 351C Tiger.  Obviously, 
>>>there's more than one way to skin this cat.  I presume you are giving your 
>>>engine temperatures in Celsius.  Few of us are really going to believe an 
>>>operating temperature between 85 and 120 F.  If your talking centigrade (or 
>>>Celsius to be more correct) this would be a range of to 185F to 248F, and 
>>>halfway between is 216F.  I, and a lot of other Tiger owners have basically 
>>>the same experience, each with very different equipment and motors.  I guess 
>>>it's natural that most of the people discussing this issue have some kind of 
>>>problem.  Diagnosing each individual problem is the challenge.
>>>     
>>>The only small thing, but significant I think, I would take issue with is 
>>>referring to the "copper washer to restrict water flow".  Reducing water 
flow 
>>>per se never improves cooling.  The value of a restriction is that it builds 
>>>pressure inside the engine, albeit at the cost of water flow.  As long as 
the 
>>>reduction in water flow is not excessive, then there's a net benefit.  The 
>>>trick is to add just the right amount of restriction, I guess only trial and 
>>>error will work here.
>>>     
>>>Bob
>>>     
>>>>Tigers,
>>>>        I am having a few chuckles with all the "Cooling of hot Tigers" 
>>>>mail.  I have a 4 barrel head 351 Cleveland in my tiger which I drive 
>>>>to work every week day.  The 351 gets 14 mph on a good week and normally 
>>>>around 13 mpg.  Needless to say I am burning more gas per minute than 
>>>>most 260 or 289 Tigers; yet I don't have an overheating problem.  I 
>>>>do admit that when I spend 15 minutes in traffic the temperature gauge 
>>>>goes up to about 1/2 way between the 85 and 120 degree mark.  In normal 
>>>>driving the gauge sets just slightly above the 85 degree mark.  I have 
>>>>a generic " Do Not Open while Hot Coolent Recovery" cap on the expansion
>>>>tank (which is completely full) and a plastic recovery bottle.  Apparently 
>>>>the cap has not opened this summer as there is green antifreeze in the 
>>>>radiator, but the plain water half filling the recovery bottle is still 
>>clear. 
>>>>        I do have a wider and longer engine compartment than stock, but 
>>>>then again I have a bigger motor filling it up.  I assume some of the air 
>>>>can get around the motor and out under the Tiger.
>>>>        The radiator is 4" wider than stock and it has a modern copper 
>>core in 
>>>>it ( which weighs a lot less than the stock English core).
>>>>        Inlet and outlets were added to the lower left and upper right 
>>>>to match the Clevland I/O.  The original Radiator I/O are capped by 
>>>>"Jones Plugs" ( these are rubber caps used by the plumbing industry 
>>>>when they pressure test their plumbing).  Probably need to replace them 
>>>>as they are now 6 or 7 years old.
>>>>        I have a 6 blade 14" steel fan that orginally supplied by Sears 
>>>>for an aftermarket air-conditioner for a Rambler.
>>>>        The thermostate is unmodified.  The Cleveland has the stock OEM 
>>>>copper washer under the thermostat to slow the water flow.
>>>>        When running the Tiger for long periods of time parked in the 
>>>>driveway ( say to charge a battery or when I am doing work that requires 
>>>>the motor to run for a long time such as breaking in a new camshaft) the 
>>>>Temperature gauge gets on up there towards 120.  At that point I either 
>>>> shut it off or set up an electric fan to blow air in the grill.  
>>>>Sometimes I use a hose to provide a small water spray on the radiator 
>>>>in these cases.
>>>>        The Tiger has the stock Tiger II dual pipe oil cooler on it. > 
>>>       The Thermo-Tec that I wrapped the headers in has caused the 
>>>>running temperature to increase 8 to 10 degrees.  I did not rejet the 
>>>>carb after wrapping the  headers and it seems that I may have lost 
>>>>1/2 to 1 mpg due to the wrap.  Maby due to excess cylinder scavaging? 
>>>>        I have a reversed hood scoop but that is mainly for air filter 
>>>>clearance.  Some air comes out of the rear of the scoop below 35 mph but 
>>>>air enters above 35 mph.
>>>>        Most of my driving is in town at 30 to 60 mph;  however I 
>>>>don't waste any time starting from lights unless I am blocked by 
>>>>traffic.  I also don't have temperature problems at 90+ on the 
>>>>highway.  That is in Florida where the air temperature is 85 to 
>>>>90 degrees with 85 to 100 percent humidity most of the year. 
>>>>(when It is not raining)
>>>>        My recommendation to Tiger Owners is to have your radiator 
>>>>recored with a modern core.  I have had a couple done for around 
>>>>$130 at the local  radiator repair shops.  I truely believe that 
>>>>the state of the art in radiators has improved in the last 30 years.
>>>>Lighter and more efficient.  ( Air has a chance to get through the core 
>>>>compared to the very dense fins of the original Tiger core.)
>>>>Jim Barrett Tiger II 351C and others 
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>     
>>
>>
>>
>     
>
>
>


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