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Hi Mirek,
That=C2=B4s a phantastic distcribtion of how to do get a gearbox in and wha=
t=20
happens if you are not skilled enough and it goes wrong.
Many thanks, I fully second your writing.
Cheers,
=20
Josef Eckert
Germany
=20
=20
=20
-----Original-Nachricht-----
Betreff: [Healeys] FW: New clutch query
Datum: 2021-09-20T07:08:27+0200
Von: "m.g.sharp--- via Healeys" <healeys@autox.team.net>
An: "'AH Mail List'" <healeys@autox.team.net>
=20
=20
=20
Simon, hate to say it, but the clutch should work perfectly after it is=20
installed, there is no =E2=80=9Cbreak-in=E2=80=9D. The trouble you had get=
ting the g=E2=80=99box=20
in is troubling. If everything is aligned it should slip in easily. I=20
presume, when installing, you put it in gear and rotated the drive flange=
=20
to get the shaft splines to align with the clutch plate. I would never=20
pull it together by winding it on with bolts. Your description that the=20
graunchy noises when shifting are expensive sounding is likely correct, so=
=20
it sounds to me that the gearbox should come out again and a thorough=20
inspection is warranted.
=20
In addition to checking that the clutch disc slides on the first motion=20
shaft splines before assembly, I also always check that the pilot bush fits=
=20
correctly on the end of the shaft. If these fit correctly and the=20
alignment is good, the g=E2=80=99box should slip in easily. Now, you may h=
ave to=20
destroy the bush to get it out of the flywheel, but they are inexpensive=20
and the peace of mind (never mind the effort to re&re the g=E2=80=99box aga=
in)=20
makes it worthwhile to do. The pilot bearing should be lightly greased=20
before assembly =E2=80=93 I use a molybdenum grease, which I also use spari=
ngly on=20
the splines =E2=80=93 don=E2=80=99t put so much on that it flies off and co=
ntaminates the=20
clutch plate). I agree with Richard that a spare first motion shaft is a=
=20
better alignment tool than a plastic substitute.
=20
Also, ensure that the bell housing to engine bolts are correctly located. =
=20
There are two special bolts called =E2=80=9Cdowel bolts=E2=80=9D (they have=
their own part=20
number that is different to the other bolts) that are more precisely=20
machined to locate the bell housing/gearbox accurately on the rear engine=
=20
plate. They can be identified by a shallow groove that is machined into=20
the shank just below the head. They go in the top left (11 o=E2=80=99clock=
) and=20
bottom right (5:25) holes (looking at the rear on the motor). See the note=
=20
on page 97 of the Originality Guide (2018) for a full description. I don=
=E2=80=99t=20
think the workshop manual adequately describes these, thinking it is=20
covered under =E2=80=9Creplacement is the reverse of removal=E2=80=9D; but =
you have to be=20
pretty observant to note these two bolts on removal!
=20
Three years ago I had an issue with a new Borg&Beck clutch plate and had my=
=20
g=E2=80=99box in and out 3 times, so I know how you are feeling, but someth=
ing is=20
wrong and you need to get it right. When it is together again, bolt the=20
driver=E2=80=99s seat back in and test drive it before putting the rest of =
the=20
interior in; it saves a bit of work if there is a problem.
=20
Lastly, don=E2=80=99t cut the head of the top slave cylinder bolt. I can g=
uarantee=20
you that if this was acceptable engineering practice the accountants at the=
=20
factory would have insisted it be done. The slave cylinder needs to be=20
securely fastened to the bell housing and one bolt is not sufficient. I=20
have probably had mine off 4, maybe 5 times in 45 years of ownership, so if=
=20
it takes me an extra 10 minutes to remove, so what? If extracting=20
inaccessible bolts is a big issue, don=E2=80=99t buy an English car! (I ju=
st had=20
to re&re the rear drain pipe from the intake manifold =E2=80=93 that is ano=
ther fun=20
one!).
=20
Good luck! Mirek
=20
From: Healeys <healeys-bounces@autox.team.net
Healeys
Sent: September 19, 2021 7:52 PM
=20
>
Subject: Re: [Healeys] New clutch query
=20
My first thought was that if you were having to force the gearbox when it=
=20
was 3 to 4 inches away from home, it may be the spines in the clutch disc=
=20
and the input shaft were causing some interference. This should have been=
=20
an easy slip fit. Did you lubricate the spines? Test fit the disc on the=
=20
input shaft? Installing a gearbox should not be a tedious affair. Or,=20
you did not get the disc properly aligned using the little plastic tool. =
=20
There is a lot of wiggle room for error. I've found that an old input=20
shaft works better than the plastic ones for getting good alignment. =20
=20
That brings me to my next observation. If for some reason the clutch disc=
=20
is hanging up on the input shaft it will not disengage as smoothly as it=20
should. Is this your problem? It's not clear to me what you mean when you=
=20
say "difficult clutch".
=20
I have never heard of any need to break-in a clutch.
=20
On Sun, Sep 19, 2021 at 2:15 PM Michael Oritt via Healeys <
Simon--
=20
I cut the head off one bolt to make it easier to R&R the secondary
cylinder. I also fashioned a small door in the extension panel to give
access to the bleed nipple from inside rather than only under the car.
=20
Best--Michael Oritt
=20
On Sun, Sep 19, 2021 at 4:23 PM Simon Lachlan via Healeys <
You=E2=80=99ll recall the Overdrive saga. Have decided not to commission =
a TV
mini-series per someone=E2=80=99s advice.
1) The overdrive is in and works very well. I haven=E2=80=99t tested the =
pressure
yet =E2=80=93 I will =E2=80=93 but it clicks in and out very briskly.
2) The new clutch kit is in. Hard to get the old bits off until I
borrowed that magic tool. Used the black nylon(?) tool from AHSpares as
so much handier than the spare original shaft.
3) Putting the gearbox back in was pretty tedious. It would go in all the
way except for the last 3 or 4 inches. Took it out again and checked the
alignment was 100% which it was. Put it back in, pushed, shoved and
cursed. In the end we wound it on with long threaded bolts. I don=E2=80=
=99t want
to put in another clutch. Ever.
4) Now, finally, the QUESTIONS:-
Initially, getting the car into any gear was very graunchy and really the
car would have been undriveable. Pedal pressure felt the same as before
but nothing was happening except expensive noise.
Although there was no evidence of a loss of fluid =E2=80=93 why would the=
re be? =E2=80=93
I bled the clutch. I have fitted the extension tube so it wasn=E2=80=99t =
tricky.
That did make a difference but not to the way it was previously.
So (1) Is it normal for clutches to be difficult at first? A sort of
=E2=80=9Cbreaking-in=E2=80=9D period??
(2) I=E2=80=99ll bleed it again but am drawn to getting a longer push rod=
for the
slave cylinder. Does that make sense? I do have to push the pedal down
pretty far. Comments?
(3) Slightly off topic=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6digging around in my files, I saw=
a suggestion to
cut the head off the top bolt that locates the slave cylinder. Then to
Loctite in permanently for use as a dowel peg. ie that bolt is a bit of a
PITA and one bolt would suffice. Wouldn=E2=80=99t it??
All advice would be very welcome,
Simon
=20
_______________________________________________
Support Team.Net<http://www.team.net/donate.html>
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=20
=20
--
Best--Michael
_______________________________________________
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Suggested annual donation $12.75
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=EF=BB=BF
------=_Part_2541643_1625235955.1632118328259
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=
=3DUTF-8"/><title></title></head><body><p style=3D"margin: 0px;"><span styl=
e=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;te=
xt-decoration:none">Hi Mirek,<br /></span></p>
<p style=3D"margin: 0px;"><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-s=
erif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">That´s a phan=
tastic distcribtion of how to do get a gearbox in and what happens if you a=
re not skilled enough and it goes wrong. </span></p>
<p style=3D"margin: 0px;"><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-s=
erif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">Many thanks, I full=
y second your writing.</span></p>
<p style=3D"margin: 0px;"><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-s=
erif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">Cheers,</span></p>
<p style=3D"margin: 0px;"> </p>
<p style=3D"margin: 0px;"><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-s=
erif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">Josef Eckert</span>=
</p>
<p style=3D"margin: 0px;"><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-s=
erif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">Germany</span></p>
<p style=3D"margin: 0px;"><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-s=
erif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none"> </span></p>
<p style=3D"margin: 0px;"> </p>
<p style=3D"margin: 0px;"> </p>
<p style=3D"margin: 0px;">-----Original-Nachricht-----</p>
<p style=3D"margin: 0px;">Betreff: [Healeys] FW: New clutch query</p>
<p style=3D"margin: 0px;">Datum: 2021-09-20T07:08:27+0200</p>
<p style=3D"margin: 0px;">Von: "m.g.sharp--- via Healeys" <healeys@autox=
.team.net></p>
<p style=3D"margin: 0px;">An: "'AH Mail List'" <healeys@autox.team.net&g=
t;</p>
<p style=3D"margin: 0px;"> </p>
<p style=3D"margin: 0px;"> </p>
<p style=3D"margin: 0px;"> </p>
<div>
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language: EN-US;">Simon,&=
nbsp; hate to say it, but the clutch should work perfectly after it is inst=
alled, there is no “break-in”. The trouble you had gettin=
g the g’box in is troubling. If everything is aligned it =
should slip in easily. I presume, when installing, you put it in gear=
and rotated the drive flange to get the shaft splines to align with the cl=
utch plate. I would never pull it together by winding it on wit=
h bolts. Your description that the graunchy noises when shifting are =
expensive sounding is likely correct, so it sounds to me that the gearbox s=
hould come out again and a thorough inspection is warranted.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language: EN-US;"> <=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language: EN-US;">In addi=
tion to checking that the clutch disc slides on the first motion shaft spli=
nes <u>before </u>assembly, I also always check that the pilot bush fits co=
rrectly on the end of the shaft. If these fit correctly and the align=
ment is good, the g’box should slip in easily. Now, you may hav=
e to destroy the bush to get it out of the flywheel, but they are inexpensi=
ve and the peace of mind (never mind the effort to re&re the g’bo=
x again) makes it worthwhile to do. The pilot bearing should be lightly gre=
ased before assembly – I use a molybdenum grease, which I also use sp=
aringly on the splines – don’t put so much on that it flies off=
and contaminates the clutch plate). I agree with Richard that a spar=
e first motion shaft is a better alignment tool than a plastic substitute.<=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language: EN-US;"> <=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language: EN-US;">Also, e=
nsure that the bell housing to engine bolts are correctly located. Th=
ere are two special bolts called “dowel bolts” (they have their=
own part number that is different to the other bolts) that are more precis=
ely machined to locate the bell housing/gearbox accurately on the rear engi=
ne plate. They can be identified by a shallow groove that is machined=
into the shank just below the head. They go in the top left (11 o&rs=
quo;clock) and bottom right (5:25) holes (looking at the rear on the motor)=
. See the note on page 97 of the Originality Guide (2018) for a full =
description. I don’t think the workshop manual adequately descr=
ibes these, thinking it is covered under “replacement is the reverse =
of removal”; but you have to be pretty observant to note these two bo=
lts on removal! </span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language: EN-US;"> <=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language: EN-US;">Three y=
ears ago I had an issue with a new Borg&Beck clutch plate and had my g&=
rsquo;box in and out 3 times, so I know how you are feeling, but something =
is wrong and you need to get it right. When it is together again, bol=
t the driver’s seat back in and test drive it before putting the rest=
of the interior in; it saves a bit of work if there is a problem.</span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language: EN-US;"> <=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language: EN-US;">Lastly,=
don’t cut the head of the top slave cylinder bolt. I can guara=
ntee you that if this was acceptable engineering practice the accountants a=
t the factory would have insisted it be done. The slave cylinder need=
s to be securely fastened to the bell housing and one bolt is not sufficien=
t. I have probably had mine off 4, maybe 5 times in 45 years of owner=
ship, so if it takes me an extra 10 minutes to remove, so what? If ex=
tracting inaccessible bolts is a big issue, don’t buy an English car!=
(I just had to re&re the rear drain pipe from the intake manifol=
d – that is another fun one!).</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language: EN-US;"> <=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language: EN-US;">Good lu=
ck! Mirek</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language: EN-US;"> <=
/span></p>
<div style=3D"border: none; border-top: solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt; padding: 3.0pt=
0cm 0cm 0cm;">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><strong><span lang=3D"EN-US">From:</span></strong><s=
pan lang=3D"EN-US"> Healeys <<a href=3D"mailto:healeys-bounces@autox.tea=
m.net">healeys-bounces@autox.team.net</a>> <strong>On Behalf Of </strong=
>richard mayor via Healeys<br /><strong>Sent:</strong> September 19, 2021 7=
:52 PM<br /><strong>To:</strong> Michael Oritt <<a href=3D"mailto:michae=
l.oritt@gmail.com">michael.oritt@gmail.com</a>><br /><strong>Cc:</strong=
> Healeys <<a href=3D"mailto:healeys@autox.team.net";>healeys@autox.team.=
net</a>><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> Re: [Healeys] New clutch query</=
span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">My first thought was that if you were having to forc=
e the gearbox when it was 3 to 4 inches away from home, it may be the spine=
s in the clutch disc and the input shaft were causing some interference.&nb=
sp; This should have been an easy slip fit. Did you lubricate the spi=
nes? Test fit the disc on the input shaft? Installing a gearbo=
x should not be a tedious affair. Or, you did not get the disc proper=
ly aligned using the little plastic tool. There is a lot of wiggle ro=
om for error. I've found that an old input shaft works better t=
han the plastic ones for getting good alignment. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">That brings me to my next observation. If for =
some reason the clutch disc is hanging up on the input shaft it will not di=
sengage as smoothly as it should. Is this your problem? It's no=
t clear to me what you mean when you say "difficult clutch".</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I have never heard of any need to break-in a c=
lutch.</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Sun, Sep 19, 2021 at 2:15 PM Michael Oritt via He=
aleys <<a href=3D"mailto:healeys@autox.team.net";>healeys@autox.team.net<=
/a>> wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border: none; border-left: solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt; paddin=
g: 0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt; margin: 5.0pt 0cm 5.0pt 4.8pt;">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: #3333ff;">Simon--</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: #3333ff;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: #3333ff;">I cut the head off o=
ne bolt to make it easier to R&R the secondary cylinder. I also fashion=
ed a small door in the extension panel to give access to the blee=
d nipple from inside rather than only under the car.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: #3333ff;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: #3333ff;">Best--Michael Oritt<=
/span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Sun, Sep 19, 2021 at 4:23 PM Simon Lachlan via He=
aleys <<a href=3D"mailto:healeys@autox.team.net";>healeys@autox.team.net<=
/a>> wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border: none; border-left: solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt; paddin=
g: 0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt; margin: 5.0pt 0cm 5.0pt 4.8pt;">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom=
-alt: auto;"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">You’ll recall the Overdrive saga. H=
ave decided not to commission a TV mini-series per someone’s ad=
vice.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom=
-alt: auto;"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">1) The overdrive is in and works very wel=
l. I haven’t tested the pressure yet – I will – but it cl=
icks in and out very briskly.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom=
-alt: auto;"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">2) The new clutch kit is in. Hard to get =
the old bits off until I borrowed that magic tool. Used the black nylon(?) =
tool from AHSpares as so much handier than the spare original shaft. </span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom=
-alt: auto;"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">3) Putting the gearbox back in was pretty=
tedious. It would go in all the way except for the last 3 or 4 inches. Too=
k it out again and checked the alignment was 100% which it was. Put it back=
in, pushed, shoved and cursed. In the end we wound it on with long threade=
d bolts. I don’t want to put in another clutch. Ever.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom=
-alt: auto;"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">4) Now, finally, the QUESTIONS:-</span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom=
-alt: auto;"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Initially, getting the car into any gear =
was very graunchy and really the car would have been undriveable. Pedal pre=
ssure felt the same as before but nothing was happening except expensive no=
ise. </span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom=
-alt: auto;"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Although there was no evidence of a loss =
of fluid – why would there be? – I bled the clutch. I have fitt=
ed the extension tube so it wasn’t tricky. That did make a difference=
but not to the way it was previously.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom=
-alt: auto;"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">So (1) Is it normal for clutches to be di=
fficult at first? A sort of “breaking-in” period??</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom=
-alt: auto;"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">(2) I’ll bleed it again but am draw=
n to getting a longer push rod for the slave cylinder. Does that make sense=
? I do have to push the pedal down pretty far. Comments?</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom=
-alt: auto;"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">(3) Slightly off topic……dig=
ging around in my files, I saw a suggestion to cut the head off the top bol=
t that locates the slave cylinder. Then to Loctite in permanently for use a=
s a dowel peg. ie that bolt is a bit of a PITA and one bolt would suffice. =
Wouldn’t it?? </span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom=
-alt: auto;"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">All advice would be very welcome,</span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom=
-alt: auto;"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Simon</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom=
-alt: auto;"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"> </span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom: 12.0pt;">___________________=
____________________________<br />Support Team.Net <a href=3D"http://www.te=
am.net/donate.html">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a><br />Suggested annu=
al donation $12.75<br /><br />Archive: <a href=3D"http://www.team.net=
/pipermail/healeys">http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys</a> <a href=3D"ht=
tp://autox.team.net/archive">http://autox.team.net/archive</a><br /><br /><=
a href=3D"mailto:Healeys@autox.team.net";>Healeys@autox.team.net</a><br /><a=
href=3D"http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys";>http://autox.team.=
net/mailman/listinfo/healeys</a><br /><br />Unsubscribe/Manage: <a href=3D"=
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</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">--</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: #3333ff;">Best--Michael</span>=
</p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom: 12.0pt;">___________________=
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