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If the head has collapsed there, the head is toast.
Cheers
Chris
From: Fot <fot-bounces@autox.team.net> On Behalf Of Anthony Parker via Fot
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2023 2:54 AM
To: FOT Triumph <fot@autox.team.net>
Subject: Re: [Fot] Coolant conundrum
Well...
Finally took the five minutes that I should have weeks ago.
Put a straight edge across the head.
The squish zone above the #2 cylinder is literally squished.
As much at 0.01" toward the center of the cylinder, but more importantly,
0.007" between the coolant passages and the gasket sealing ring.
Cost myself a lot of time, money, and frustration.
Live and learn.
Will try to get the head surfaced tomorrow first thing and then go from
there.
Could be cracked inside the water jacket and the valve seats could be warped
for all I know.
Though, I did lap the intake and exhaust in that cylinder and everything
seemed to be seating properly.
Thanks for everyone's feedback,
_____
on behalf of Anthony Parker via Fot <fot@autox.team.net
Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2023 8:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Fot] Coolant conundrum
Thanks Rich, Robert, and everyone else.
More digging..
White sludge in valve cover.
Watery oil in tappets.
Head is off and stripped, ready for the machine shop.
Strange that this morning before the third test, the oil was clear and
clean.
We'll see if the head or the block is the problem.
With my recent luck, it could be both.
_____
>
Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2023 5:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Fot] Coolant conundrum
The cooling of the radiator and temp spike seem to indicate an air bubble in
the system. It could get there from spot temps causing localized boiling or
it could come from a pressure leak from the combustion chamber or head
gasket.
If you think you have a cracked head or bad head gasket, try pressurizing
the system and see if the pressure holds. Stant makes a tool like, there are
probably others, but buy or borrow this tool. It takes all the guess work
out of such problems. My rule of thumb is to bring it up to cap pressure and
see if it holds for at last 30 minutes (plus or minus a couple of lb is
okay, but loosing half or more in less than 30 minutes is a dead giveaway.
I would also verify that the ignition timing is not too far advanced. Not
that I ever had that problem. :-)
Note that you can also use the Stant gauge to verify "normal" system
pressure - you want to do that to make sure your cap pressure will keep the
coolant from boiling.
Good luck figuring out the problem.
Regards,
Bob Lang
On Saturday, September 23, 2023 at 02:05:24 PM EDT, Anthony Parker via Fot
I'm having cooling problems.
Need help being convinced that I have to do what I don't want to do.
Brand new short block, same old head, water pump, and radiator.
Over three trials, the engine will run fine and warm up with radiator hoses
and radiator warming properly. Then the hoses and radiator will cool and
coolant temp will spike to 230+. Radiator cold with sky high coolant temps.
Two more clues, hoses seem to pressurize very quickly and when I opened the
radiator cap this morning (after cooling all night) pressurized air and
coolant shot everywhere.
No thermostat and I have confirmed three times that system is completely
full
Seems I have combustion gases getting into coolant and then bubbles
eventually removing pump prime.
Don't know what else it could be.
Given the apparent direction of the leak, is there any use in trying some
"stop leak" product?
Is it time to pull the head again to look for warping or gasket leak?
I suppose it could be a cracked cylinder, but this block has been checked by
two different trusted engine machinists.
Desperately trying to get to the RunOffs, Anthony.
_______________________________________________
http://www.fot-racing.com
Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/robertlangtr6@yahoo.com
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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple style=3D'word-wrap:break-word'><div =
class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal>If the head has collapsed =
there, the head is toast.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Cheers<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Chris<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span lang=3DDE>From:</span></b><span =
lang=3DDE> Fot <fot-bounces@autox.team.net> <b>On Behalf Of =
</b>Anthony Parker via Fot<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, September 25, 2023 =
2:54 AM<br><b>To:</b> FOT Triumph =
<fot@autox.team.net><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fot] Coolant =
conundrum<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Well...<o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div>=
<div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Finally took the five minutes =
that I should have weeks ago.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div>=
<div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Put a straight edge across the =
head.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>The squish zone above the #2 =
cylinder is literally squished.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>As much =
at 0.01" toward the center of the cylinder, but more importantly, =
0.007" between the coolant passages and the gasket sealing =
ring.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div>=
<div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Cost myself a lot of time, money, =
and frustration.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div>=
<div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Live and =
learn.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div>=
<div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Will try to get the head surfaced =
tomorrow first thing and then go from =
there.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Could be cracked inside the water =
jacket and the valve seats could be warped for all I =
know.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Though, I did lap the intake and =
exhaust in that cylinder and everything seemed to be seating =
properly.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div>=
<div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Thanks for everyone's =
feedback,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div>=
<div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div>=
<div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div>=
<div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div>=
<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><hr =
size=3D2 width=3D"98%" align=3Dcenter></div><div id=3DdivRplyFwdMsg><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'color:black'>From:</span></b><span =
style=3D'color:black'> Fot <<a =
href=3D"mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.net";>fot-bounces@autox.team.net</a>=
> on behalf of Anthony Parker via Fot <<a =
href=3D"mailto:fot@autox.team.net";>fot@autox.team.net</a>><br><b>Sent:=
</b> Saturday, September 23, 2023 8:02 PM<br><b>To:</b> Robert Lang =
<<a =
href=3D"mailto:robertlangtr6@yahoo.com";>robertlangtr6@yahoo.com</a>>; =
FOT Triumph <<a =
href=3D"mailto:fot@autox.team.net";>fot@autox.team.net</a>><br><b>Subje=
ct:</b> Re: [Fot] Coolant conundrum</span> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Thanks =
Rich, Robert, and everyone else.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div>=
<div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>More =
digging..<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div>=
<div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>White sludge in valve =
cover.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Watery oil in =
tappets.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div>=
<div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Head is off and stripped, ready =
for the machine shop.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div>=
<div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Strange that this morning before =
the third test, the oil was clear and =
clean.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div>=
<div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>We'll see if the head or the =
block is the problem. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>With my =
recent luck, it could be both.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div>=
<div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div>=
<div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div>=
<div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div>=
<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><hr =
size=3D2 width=3D"98%" align=3Dcenter></div><div =
id=3D"x_divRplyFwdMsg"><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'color:black'>From:</span></b><span style=3D'color:black'> =
Robert Lang <<a =
href=3D"mailto:robertlangtr6@yahoo.com";>robertlangtr6@yahoo.com</a>><b=
r><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, September 23, 2023 5:45 PM<br><b>To:</b> FOT =
Triumph <<a =
href=3D"mailto:fot@autox.team.net";>fot@autox.team.net</a>>; Anthony =
Parker <<a =
href=3D"mailto:solarant@hotmail.com";>solarant@hotmail.com</a>><br><b>S=
ubject:</b> Re: [Fot] Coolant conundrum</span> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>The =
cooling of the radiator and temp spike seem to indicate an air bubble in =
the system. It could get there from spot temps causing localized boiling =
or it could come from a pressure leak from the combustion chamber or =
head gasket.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'><o:p> =
</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>If you =
think you have a cracked head or bad head gasket, try pressurizing the =
system and see if the pressure holds. Stant makes a tool like, there are =
probably others, but buy or borrow this tool. It takes all the guess =
work out of such problems. My rule of thumb is to bring it up to cap =
pressure and see if it holds for at last 30 minutes (plus or minus a =
couple of lb is okay, but loosing half or more in less than 30 minutes =
is a dead giveaway.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'><o:p> =
</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>I would =
also verify that the ignition timing is not too far advanced. Not that I =
ever had that problem. :-)<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'><o:p> =
</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>Note that =
you can also use the Stant gauge to verify "normal" system =
pressure - you want to do that to make sure your cap pressure will keep =
the coolant from boiling.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'><o:p> =
</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>Good luck =
figuring out the problem.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'><o:p> =
</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>Regards,<o:=
p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>Bob =
Lang<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'><o:p> =
</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'><o:p> =
</o:p></span></p></div></div><div =
id=3D"x_x_ydpf09cc1feyahoo_quoted_6336859216"><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282=
A'>On Saturday, September 23, 2023 at 02:05:24 PM EDT, Anthony Parker =
via Fot <<a =
href=3D"mailto:fot@autox.team.net";>fot@autox.team.net</a>> wrote: =
<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282=
A'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282=
A'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><div =
id=3D"x_x_ydpf09cc1feyiv8718614122"><div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'background:white'><span =
class=3Dxxydpf09cc1feyiv8718614122contentpasted0><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.5pt;color:#242424'>I'm having cooling =
problems.</span></span><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.5pt;color:#242424'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div=
><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.5pt;color:#242424'>Need help being convinced that =
I have to do what I don't want to do.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.5pt;color:#242424'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></di=
v><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.5pt;color:#242424'>Brand new short block, same old =
head, water pump, and radiator.<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.5pt;color:#242424'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></di=
v><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.5pt;color:#242424'>Over three trials, the engine =
will run fine and warm up with radiator hoses and radiator warming =
properly. Then the hoses and radiator will cool and coolant temp will =
spike to 230+. Radiator cold with sky high coolant =
temps.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.5pt;color:#242424'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></di=
v><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.5pt;color:#242424'>Two more clues, hoses seem to =
pressurize very quickly and when I opened the radiator cap this morning =
(after cooling all night) pressurized air and coolant shot =
everywhere.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.5pt;color:#242424'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></di=
v><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'background:white'><span =
class=3Dxxydpf09cc1feyiv8718614122contentpasted1><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.5pt;color:#242424;background:white'>No thermostat =
and I have confirmed three times that system is completely =
full</span></span><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.5pt;color:#242424'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div=
><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.5pt;color:#242424'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></di=
v><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.5pt;color:#242424'>Seems I have combustion gases =
getting into coolant and then bubbles eventually removing pump =
prime.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.5pt;color:#242424'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></di=
v><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.5pt;color:#242424'>Don't know what else it could =
be.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.5pt;color:#242424'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></di=
v><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.5pt;color:#242424'>Given the apparent direction of =
the leak, is there any use in trying some "stop leak" =
product?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.5pt;color:#242424'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></di=
v><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.5pt;color:#242424'>Is it time to pull the head =
again to look for warping or gasket =
leak?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.5pt;color:#242424'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></di=
v><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.5pt;color:#242424'>I suppose it could be a cracked =
cylinder, but this block has been checked by two different trusted =
engine machinists.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.5pt;color:#242424'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></di=
v><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.5pt;color:#242424'>Desperately trying to get to =
the RunOffs, Anthony.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#26282=
A'>_______________________________________________<br><a =
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