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Re: [Fot] Coolant conundrum

from [Anthony Parker via Fot] [Permanent Link][Original]
To: FOT Triumph <fot@autox.team.net>
Subject: Re: [Fot] Coolant conundrum
From: Anthony Parker via Fot <fot@autox.team.net>
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2023 00:54:13 +0000
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Thread-index: AQHZ7i06squsThFZL06BswP7O8tqorAo8hQAgAAlEQ+AAZ8S7A==
Thread-topic: [Fot] Coolant conundrum 
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Content-Language: en-US
        boundary="_000_PH0PR19MB749557991C0483EDAB1FAC28D7FCAPH0PR19MB7495namp_"

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Well...

Finally took the five minutes that I should have weeks ago.

Put a straight edge across the head.
The squish zone above the #2 cylinder is literally squished.
As much at 0.01" toward the center of the cylinder, but more importantly, 0=
.007" between the coolant passages and the gasket sealing ring.

Cost myself a lot of time, money, and frustration.

Live and learn.

Will try to get the head surfaced tomorrow first thing and then go from the=
re.
Could be cracked inside the water jacket and the valve seats could be warpe=
d for all I know.
Though, I did lap the intake and exhaust in that cylinder and everything se=
emed to be seating properly.

Thanks for everyone's feedback,




________________________________
From: Fot <fot-bounces@autox.team.net> on behalf of Anthony Parker via Fot =
<fot@autox.team.net>
Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2023 8:02 PM
To: Robert Lang <robertlangtr6@yahoo.com>; FOT Triumph <fot@autox.team.net>
Subject: Re: [Fot] Coolant conundrum

Thanks Rich, Robert, and everyone else.

More digging..

White sludge in valve cover.
Watery oil in tappets.

Head is off and stripped, ready for the machine shop.

Strange that this morning before the third test, the oil was clear and clea=
n.

We'll see if the head or the block is the problem.
With my recent luck, it could be both.




________________________________
From: Robert Lang <robertlangtr6@yahoo.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2023 5:45 PM
To: FOT Triumph <fot@autox.team.net>; Anthony Parker <solarant@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Fot] Coolant conundrum

The cooling of the radiator and temp spike seem to indicate an air bubble i=
n the system. It could get there from spot temps causing localized boiling =
or it could come from a pressure leak from the combustion chamber or head g=
asket.

If you think you have a cracked head or bad head gasket, try pressurizing t=
he system and see if the pressure holds. Stant makes a tool like, there are=
 probably others, but buy or borrow this tool. It takes all the guess work =
out of such problems. My rule of thumb is to bring it up to cap pressure an=
d see if it holds for at last 30 minutes (plus or minus a couple of lb is o=
kay, but loosing half or more in less than 30 minutes is a dead giveaway.

I would also verify that the ignition timing is not too far advanced. Not t=
hat I ever had that problem. :-)

Note that you can also use the Stant gauge to verify "normal" system pressu=
re - you want to do that to make sure your cap pressure will keep the coola=
nt from boiling.

Good luck figuring out the problem.

Regards,
Bob Lang


On Saturday, September 23, 2023 at 02:05:24 PM EDT, Anthony Parker via Fot =
<fot@autox.team.net> wrote:


I'm having cooling problems.
Need help being convinced that I have to do what I don't want to do.

Brand new short block, same old head, water pump, and radiator.

Over three trials, the engine will run fine and warm up with radiator hoses=
 and radiator warming properly. Then the hoses and radiator will cool and c=
oolant temp will spike to 230+. Radiator cold with sky high coolant temps.

Two more clues, hoses seem to pressurize very quickly and when I opened the=
 radiator cap this morning (after cooling all night) pressurized air and co=
olant shot everywhere.

No thermostat and I have confirmed three times that system is completely fu=
ll

Seems I have combustion gases getting into coolant and then bubbles eventua=
lly removing pump prime.

Don't know what else it could be.

Given the apparent direction of the leak, is there any use in trying some "=
stop leak" product?

Is it time to pull the head again to look for warping or gasket leak?

I suppose it could be a cracked cylinder, but this block has been checked b=
y two different trusted engine machinists.

Desperately trying to get to the RunOffs, Anthony.
_______________________________________________

http://www.fot-racing.com

Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
@yahoo.com



--_000_PH0PR19MB749557991C0483EDAB1FAC28D7FCAPH0PR19MB7495namp_
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<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii"=
>
<style type=3D"text/css" style=3D"display:none;"> P {margin-top:0;margin-bo=
ttom:0;} </style>
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<body dir=3D"ltr">
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;=
 color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D"elementToProof">
Well...</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;=
 color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D"elementToProof">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;=
 color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D"elementToProof">
Finally took the five minutes that I should have weeks ago.</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;=
 color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D"elementToProof">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;=
 color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D"elementToProof">
Put a straight edge across the head.</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;=
 color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D"elementToProof">
The squish zone above the #2 cylinder is literally squished.</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;=
 color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D"elementToProof">
As much at 0.01&quot; toward the center of the cylinder, but more important=
ly, 0.007&quot; between the coolant passages and the gasket sealing ring.</=
div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;=
 color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D"elementToProof">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;=
 color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D"elementToProof">
Cost myself a lot of time, money, and frustration.</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;=
 color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D"elementToProof">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;=
 color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D"elementToProof">
Live and learn.</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;=
 color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D"elementToProof">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;=
 color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D"elementToProof">
Will try to get the head surfaced tomorrow first thing and then go from the=
re.</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;=
 color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D"elementToProof">
Could be cracked inside the water jacket and the valve seats could be warpe=
d for all I know.</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;=
 color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D"elementToProof">
Though, I did lap the intake and exhaust in that cylinder and everything se=
emed to be seating properly.</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;=
 color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D"elementToProof">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;=
 color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D"elementToProof">
Thanks for everyone's feedback,</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;=
 color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D"elementToProof">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;=
 color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D"elementToProof">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;=
 color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D"elementToProof">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;=
 color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D"elementToProof">
<br>
</div>
<div id=3D"appendonsend"></div>
<hr style=3D"display:inline-block;width:98%" tabindex=3D"-1">
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" st=
yle=3D"font-size:11pt" color=3D"#000000"><b>From:</b> Fot &lt;fot-bounces@a=
utox.team.net&gt; on behalf of Anthony Parker via Fot &lt;fot@autox.team.ne=
t&gt;<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, September 23, 2023 8:02 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Robert Lang &lt;robertlangtr6@yahoo.com&gt;; FOT Triumph &lt;fot=
@autox.team.net&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fot] Coolant conundrum</font>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
</div>
<style type=3D"text/css" style=3D"display:none">
<!--
p
        {margin-top:0;
        margin-bottom:0}
-->
</style>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"x_elementToProof" style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans=
-serif; font-size:12pt; color:rgb(0,0,0)">
Thanks Rich, Robert, and everyone else.</div>
<div class=3D"x_elementToProof" style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans=
-serif; font-size:12pt; color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"x_elementToProof" style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans=
-serif; font-size:12pt; color:rgb(0,0,0)">
More digging..</div>
<div class=3D"x_elementToProof" style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans=
-serif; font-size:12pt; color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"x_elementToProof" style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans=
-serif; font-size:12pt; color:rgb(0,0,0)">
White sludge in valve cover.</div>
<div class=3D"x_elementToProof" style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans=
-serif; font-size:12pt; color:rgb(0,0,0)">
Watery oil in tappets.</div>
<div class=3D"x_elementToProof" style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans=
-serif; font-size:12pt; color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"x_elementToProof" style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans=
-serif; font-size:12pt; color:rgb(0,0,0)">
Head is off and stripped, ready for the machine shop.</div>
<div class=3D"x_elementToProof" style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans=
-serif; font-size:12pt; color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"x_elementToProof" style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans=
-serif; font-size:12pt; color:rgb(0,0,0)">
Strange that this morning before the third test, the oil was clear and clea=
n.</div>
<div class=3D"x_elementToProof" style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans=
-serif; font-size:12pt; color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"x_elementToProof" style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans=
-serif; font-size:12pt; color:rgb(0,0,0)">
We'll see if the head or the block is the problem.&nbsp;&nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D"x_elementToProof" style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans=
-serif; font-size:12pt; color:rgb(0,0,0)">
With my recent luck, it could be both.</div>
<div class=3D"x_elementToProof" style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans=
-serif; font-size:12pt; color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"x_elementToProof" style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans=
-serif; font-size:12pt; color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"x_elementToProof" style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans=
-serif; font-size:12pt; color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"x_elementToProof" style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans=
-serif; font-size:12pt; color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<br>
</div>
<div id=3D"x_appendonsend"></div>
<hr tabindex=3D"-1" style=3D"display:inline-block; width:98%">
<div id=3D"x_divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" =
color=3D"#000000" style=3D"font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b> Robert Lang &lt;rob=
ertlangtr6@yahoo.com&gt;<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, September 23, 2023 5:45 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> FOT Triumph &lt;fot@autox.team.net&gt;; Anthony Parker &lt;solar=
ant@hotmail.com&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fot] Coolant conundrum</font>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"x_x_ydp59097fd5yahoo-style-wrap" style=3D"font-family:Helveti=
ca Neue,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif; font-size:13px">
<div></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">The cooling of the radiator and temp=
 spike seem to indicate an air bubble in the system. It could get there fro=
m spot temps causing localized boiling or it could come from a pressure lea=
k from the combustion chamber or head
 gasket.<br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false"><br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">If you think you have a cracked head=
 or bad head gasket, try pressurizing the system and see if the pressure ho=
lds. Stant makes a tool like, there are probably others, but buy or borrow =
this tool. It takes all the guess work
 out of such problems. My rule of thumb is to bring it up to cap pressure a=
nd see if it holds for at last 30 minutes (plus or minus a couple of lb is =
okay, but loosing half or more in less than 30 minutes is a dead giveaway.<=
br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false"><br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">I would also verify that the ignitio=
n timing is not too far advanced. Not that I ever had that problem. :-)</di=
v>
<div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false"><br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">Note that you can also use the Stant=
 gauge to verify &quot;normal&quot; system pressure - you want to do that t=
o make sure your cap pressure will keep the coolant from boiling.</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false"><br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">Good luck figuring out the problem.<=
/div>
<div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false"><br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">Regards,</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">Bob Lang<br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false"><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div id=3D"x_x_ydpf09cc1feyahoo_quoted_6336859216" class=3D"x_x_ydpf09cc1fe=
yahoo_quoted">
<div style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica Neue',Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif; font=
-size:13px; color:#26282a">
<div>On Saturday, September 23, 2023 at 02:05:24 PM EDT, Anthony Parker via=
 Fot &lt;fot@autox.team.net&gt; wrote:
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div id=3D"x_x_ydpf09cc1feyiv8718614122">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"x_x_ydpf09cc1feyiv8718614122elementToProof" style=3D"font-fam=
ily:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt; color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<div class=3D"x_x_ydpf09cc1feyiv8718614122ContentPasted0" style=3D"font-siz=
e:15px; margin:0px; color:rgb(36,36,36); background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"=
>
<span class=3D"x_x_ydpf09cc1feyiv8718614122ContentPasted0" style=3D"margin:=
0px">I'm having cooling problems.</span></div>
<div class=3D"x_x_ydpf09cc1feyiv8718614122ContentPasted0 x_x_ydpf09cc1feyiv=
8718614122elementToProof" style=3D"font-size:15px; margin:0px; color:rgb(36=
,36,36); background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
Need help being convinced that I have to do what I don't want to do.</div>
<div class=3D"x_x_ydpf09cc1feyiv8718614122ContentPasted0 x_x_ydpf09cc1feyiv=
8718614122elementToProof" style=3D"font-size:15px; margin:0px; color:rgb(36=
,36,36); background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"x_x_ydpf09cc1feyiv8718614122ContentPasted0 x_x_ydpf09cc1feyiv=
8718614122elementToProof" style=3D"font-size:15px; margin:0px; color:rgb(36=
,36,36); background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
Brand new short block, same old head, water pump, and radiator.<br>
<div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"margin:0px"><br class=3D"x_x_ydpf09cc1feyiv871861=
4122ContentPasted0">
</div>
<div class=3D"x_x_ydpf09cc1feyiv8718614122ContentPasted0" style=3D"margin:0=
px">Over three trials, the engine will run fine and warm up with radiator h=
oses and radiator warming properly. Then the hoses and radiator will cool a=
nd coolant temp will spike to 230+.
 Radiator cold with sky high coolant temps.</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"margin:0px"><br class=3D"x_x_ydpf09cc1feyiv871861=
4122ContentPasted0">
</div>
<div class=3D"x_x_ydpf09cc1feyiv8718614122ContentPasted0" style=3D"margin:0=
px">Two more clues, hoses seem to pressurize very quickly and when I opened=
 the radiator cap this morning (after cooling all night) pressurized air an=
d coolant shot everywhere.</div>
<div class=3D"x_x_ydpf09cc1feyiv8718614122ContentPasted0" style=3D"margin:0=
px"><br>
</div>
<div class=3D"x_x_ydpf09cc1feyiv8718614122ContentPasted0" style=3D"margin:0=
px"><span class=3D"x_x_ydpf09cc1feyiv8718614122ContentPasted1" style=3D"dis=
play:inline!important; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">No thermostat and=
 I have confirmed three times that system
 is completely full</span><br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"margin:0px"><br class=3D"x_x_ydpf09cc1feyiv871861=
4122ContentPasted0">
</div>
<div class=3D"x_x_ydpf09cc1feyiv8718614122ContentPasted0" style=3D"margin:0=
px">Seems I have combustion gases getting into coolant and then bubbles eve=
ntually removing pump prime.</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"margin:0px"><br class=3D"x_x_ydpf09cc1feyiv871861=
4122ContentPasted0">
</div>
Don't know what else it could be.</div>
<div class=3D"x_x_ydpf09cc1feyiv8718614122ContentPasted0 x_x_ydpf09cc1feyiv=
8718614122elementToProof" style=3D"font-size:15px; margin:0px; color:rgb(36=
,36,36); background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"x_x_ydpf09cc1feyiv8718614122ContentPasted0 x_x_ydpf09cc1feyiv=
8718614122elementToProof" style=3D"font-size:15px; margin:0px; color:rgb(36=
,36,36); background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
Given the apparent direction of the leak, is there any use in trying some &=
quot;stop leak&quot; product?</div>
<div class=3D"x_x_ydpf09cc1feyiv8718614122ContentPasted0 x_x_ydpf09cc1feyiv=
8718614122elementToProof" style=3D"font-size:15px; margin:0px; color:rgb(36=
,36,36); background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"x_x_ydpf09cc1feyiv8718614122ContentPasted0 x_x_ydpf09cc1feyiv=
8718614122elementToProof" style=3D"font-size:15px; margin:0px; color:rgb(36=
,36,36); background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
Is it time to pull the head again to look for warping or gasket leak?</div>
<div class=3D"x_x_ydpf09cc1feyiv8718614122ContentPasted0 x_x_ydpf09cc1feyiv=
8718614122elementToProof" style=3D"font-size:15px; margin:0px; color:rgb(36=
,36,36); background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"x_x_ydpf09cc1feyiv8718614122ContentPasted0 x_x_ydpf09cc1feyiv=
8718614122elementToProof" style=3D"font-size:15px; margin:0px; color:rgb(36=
,36,36); background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
I suppose it could be a cracked cylinder, but this block has been checked b=
y two different trusted engine machinists.</div>
<div class=3D"x_x_ydpf09cc1feyiv8718614122ContentPasted0 x_x_ydpf09cc1feyiv=
8718614122elementToProof" style=3D"font-size:15px; margin:0px; color:rgb(36=
,36,36); background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"x_x_ydpf09cc1feyiv8718614122ContentPasted0 x_x_ydpf09cc1feyiv=
8718614122elementToProof" style=3D"font-size:15px; margin:0px; color:rgb(36=
,36,36); background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
Desperately trying to get to the RunOffs, Anthony.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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