Howdy, all.
Catchin' up on my mail, I realized that maybe I oughta follow up just one
more time, on what had evolved into a Ford small-block thread.
Rod Bean wrote:
>>> DeTomaso Mangusta = predecessor to the DeTomaso Pantera. The
>>> Mangusta shares something with the Lotus 30/40, a backbone chassis
>>> which wasn't rigid enough and made the cars vile handling.
I wrote:
>> It shares something else as well, a Windsor family Ford small block
>> V8; probably almost the same one <snip>
Rod added:
351 Cleveland for the Pantera <snip>
I continued:
>> I believe the US market Mangustas came with a Boss 302, which is another
>> proposition altogether. Boss 302 engines are a rarity, and are highly
>> sought after by Ford-heads today.
DWhitesdJr@aol.com provided some more Lotus 30/40 details:
> The Lotus 30 had a 289 (4.7 liter) while the
> Lotus 40 had a 302 (5 liters). At a couple of races, Team Lotus had
> problems with the 302 and used a 289 as a backup.
> Another difference was the 30 had a ZF 5DS30 box (similar to the Pantera)
> while the 40 had a Hewland.
This last bit about the 30 and 40 having different gearboxes, I found very
interesting. Din' know that... thanks!
Then Mark Le Vea wrote:
> I believe the heads were labeled Windsor or Cleveland. I didn't know
> of any blocks with that label.
I think it is just a matter of semantics. Some people use "small-block"
specifically implying 260/289/302/351W family engines only, and describe
the other widgets using their individual nomenclatures. Other people use
Windsor to describe the 260/289/302/351W family engines, not just the
heads. Take your choice.
Certainly the heads are the main different thing, between the Windsor and
Cleveland family engines, and primarily that is what the names refer to.
The Boss 302 is really kind of a special case, because in essence it has
Cleveland heads on a (beefed) Windsor short block.
The short deck blocks (i.e. Windsor 260/289/302 and the Boss 302) *are*
different. Not by a lot, but by enough that it is a bit tricky to swap
Boss 302 heads or Cleveland heads onto a 289. The water passages on the
Cleveland type heads are different. You have to drill them out. Also,
the Boss 302 came with a forged crank, 4 bolt mains, and lots of other
interesting goodies.
351C blocks, in contrast, are considerably different from 351W blocks.
They don't even have the same deck height, if I recall correctly. However,
you *can* swap Cleveland heads onto a Windsor 351, resulting in something
people occasionally call a "Clevor", but I don't know what modifications
are required, in this particular case.
> The Windsor heads were the torturous
> airway kind Detroit was famous for in the 60's. Lots of abrupt
> changes in direction for the airflow. The Cleveland heads were put on
> the Pantera. Cleveland's had the "much more straighter" port
> configuration. A real breather.
Yep, the Cleveland heads have really good ports. My best understanding
is that Ford adopted valve, chamber, and port geometry ideas stolen from
the design of the Chevy big block, when they designed the Cleveland.
> Also the small block 302 and the 351 are different blocks.
You bet. The 351 Windsor engines have a taller deck.
Anyway, summarizing (please provide any known corrections?)
*DeTomaso Mangusta US market Boss 302 Euro Market Windsor 302 (?)
*DeTomaso Pantera All markets (?) Cleveland 351 (probably 4BBL heads)
*Lotus 30 Windsor 289 (presumably k-spec, plus quad IDAs)
*Lotus 40 Windsor 302 (Webers? Injection?)
And finally, Rod reminded us:
> the 40 had *10* more mistakes... ;-)
Sigh. Yeah, although we Ford small-block fans might have hoped the 30
and 40 would be successful.... they certainly weren't.
Oh well.
Now, can anyone tell us some history about the 4 cam Ford small block
used in the '65 Indy car? (Lotus 38, right?) <drool>
Regards,
Erik
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