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<DIV>very good points. I'm reminded of a guy I met, about 402,401 levels
over my pay grade, who participates in the "real" classic car scene. He
told me, with a slight smile on his face, that the car is not original if it
doesn't have the orig air in the tires/tyres! But, on the next part he was
serious. He said that when they type up their litttle "bio" sheets on the
car, they find paper from 1932 (or whatever year), and a typewriter from that
era to type it out. He didn't mention the ribbon . . . . Ask
me? That's insanity, but I guess that's the kind of thing it takes to win,
in those circles.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>#2SteveK</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=bachldrs@comcast.net href="mailto:bachldrs@comcast.net">Allen
Bachelder</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=zmagnette@autox.team.net
href="mailto:zmagnette@autox.team.net">List for the Z Magnette Group - North
America</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, January 26, 2014 10:38
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Zmagnette]
Preservation</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>I see my "Geraldine" has already come up in this discussion, and I thank
you for the kind remarks.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Sometimes the choice is made for us. Depends on the car
that ends up in our hands. "Geraldine" came to me in Ivory over Damask
Red, but her chassis number reads "KATT....." Yup, that means she was
originally a MONOTONE Varitone - seafoam green all over. For that reason
alone, she was no candidate for originality. The only way to return to
original color was to repaint her. A complete repaint in a
"surviver" class? I think not. Then she already had an 1800/5-speed.
That was a big part of the attraction. Only after getting her home
did I discover what a botch-job that was. So there I was with no
original engine, and no original transmission. But much as the 5-speed
conversion had been botched, the engine had been very-well rebuilt. And then
there was the upholstery - well-worn burgundy velvet. Does the word "pimp"
come to mind? So, for me, restoration was the only route - but then
there's that third choice that Steve T wasn't expecting: even while restoring,
do you go totally original or modify to taste. I think folks at most
"people's choice" shows seem to have a slight preference for original
restorations. If you modify, overall, your car needs to be all the
better to win over equally nice originals. That's just a theory, mind you.
I've lost in some shows because some folks didn't care for my mods.
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Beyond that, despite the fact that my paint job (AFTER I did all the rust
repair myself!!!) cost more than my first house, I am detail-challenged, and
what's more, I drive my cars. "Geraldine" will inevitably deteriorate at
least some in the oncoming years. And I have to accept the fact that my
temperament and my driving habits have a price, and that's OK. It has to
be - otherwise I just won't enjoy the car as much as I could. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Given an original car worth saving, I think I would save it. But
hey, let's consider what a truly original car would be: </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
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<DIV>It would have four badly split and rotted bias-ply tyres.</DIV>
<DIV>All rubber window trim would be cracked, broken, and hard as a
rock.</DIV>
<DIV>All hoses would be perished</DIV>
<DIV>Wiring insulation would be hardened and cracked</DIV>
<DIV>All bullet connectors would be oxidized </DIV>
<DIV>Battery would be dead and dried out...</DIV>
<DIV>Do you get the point?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>OK, so I'm being facetious, but if we're proposing
guidelines for judging the barn-find classes, you can't simply give the trophy
to the most original car. Now, how crazy is it - really - to see somebody
gently prodding an original car on original tyres out of a trailer and onto
the showfield. We might be impressed as h*ll with those original tyres
in a remarkable state of preservation, but I don't think Steve Trovato should
DRIVE his car to the show and on to the field to get beaten by a car like
that.
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>So, realistically, the answer has to be that the ideal survivor car is
one that has been properly maintained so as to maintain its usefulness over
the years. It may have received even some major repairs - but only as
necessary to keep the car reliable and useful. For example, I think we
all agree that Grant Howlett has the most beautiful unrestored Magnette on the
planet. Yet Grant's "Lord Peter" required an engine rebuild after
not much more than it's first 50 years. But who could argue that it is
no longer original? If it isn't, what is it??? It's certainly NOT
restored! I would suggest that an engine rebuild every 50 years or so
might be considered routine maintenance. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Pardon my verbosity, but I'm trying to address another concern Steve T
brought up: the lack of any viable recognition in the NAMGAR "preservation
class". Granted, we don't have to come home with a trophy in order to
enjoy a show or GT, but there's no metabolism in a "display only" class.
Whether you expect to win anything or not, it's a lot more fun when you know
your class is being judged - by the people, or whatever. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>I suggest that for the benefit of all "preservation class" participants -
not just Magnettes - that we should propose a set of criteria for judging
these cars, and furthermore, I would propose that this be done by a team of
judges. We are never going to agree, even just within ZMG, on what those
criteria should be, but I think we, and NAMGAR, could agree on criteria that
would probably garner just about everybody's approval. Folks would enter their
cars in the preservation class, knowing in advance what the criteria are. Some
would grumble - so what's new? Criteria can be revisited from time to time
anyway. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>It's really only in attempting to apply criteria, that we figure out what
they really are. Last year at Asheville, Steve, I remember hearing
somebody saying that he'd rather have your car than all the rest put together.
So there are people out there who really appreciate what you are
doing. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Beyond these considerations, I wholeheartedly agree with those who say
"it's your car; do what you want with it". While treading on one of the
dearest friendships one can hope for in life, I need give an example of my
point of view regarding the aforementioned Millicent Rose. MR strikes me
as a strong candidate for preservation. OK, so she needs repair to her
upholstery. So, I might argue, repair it. She will be a little less
original - but simply a little more maintained (a la Lord Peter). OTOH,
I think I know MR's owner to be a man who is passionate about achieving
excellence with his own hands. Whether it's rebuilding the transmission,
painting the car, or refinishing the dash, here resides a manually-expressed
creativity that simply cannot be satisfied in any other way. Ultimately,
we as owners are more important that the stuff with which we work.
Whatever our answer to Steve T.'s dilemma is, that answer has to take
into account that we are all individuals with individual reasons for being in
the hobby. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>The one conclusion I can come to is that NAMGAR needs to reward those in
the "preservation class" - or that class will die out. Even folks who
are genuinely disinterested in trophies do enjoy participating in a process
that recognizes excellence. Their cars do set the standard.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>And it's time to quit. You might think that Bachelder guy doesn't
have enough to do. And right now, that's true. It's too cold out to heat
my shop, and I'm about 75% retired - so what's left? You just got
it...</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Cheers,</DIV>
<DIV>Allen</DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
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& Florrie Bachelder =iii=<<BR>Spring Creek Home
for Wayward MGs</I></B></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica; WORD-WRAP: break-word; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 12px; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space"><B><I>'57
ZB, '65 B, '69 C/GT, '73 B/GT</I></B></DIV>
<DIV
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Street, MI 48049,
USA</I></B></DIV></SPAN></DIV></SPAN></DIV></SPAN></DIV></SPAN></DIV></SPAN></DIV></SPAN></DIV></SPAN></DIV></SPAN></DIV></SPAN></DIV></SPAN></DIV></SPAN></DIV></SPAN></DIV></SPAN></DIV></SPAN></DIV></SPAN></DIV></SPAN></DIV></SPAN></DIV></SPAN></DIV></SPAN><B><I><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px" class=Apple-style-span><A
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<DIV>On Jan 26, 2014, at 10:26 PM, Steve Kirby wrote:</DIV><BR
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<DIV bgcolor="#ffffff">
<DIV>I'm so torn with this same question. I've bored most of you with
the story of the orig owner, early ZA I have: "Millicent Rose".</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Gosh, what I'd love to do is save the back seat and back door panels,
cuz they are so darn near perfectly original, and I know the leather could
be preserved with all that wonderful stuff. Even the front door panels
are very, very preservable. The interior is that green color.
It's "sooooooooooo" 50's English Magnette, and a big part of me loves it,
simply cuz it is so original. The car is black, and again, I love the
originality, but frankly, a black car and the green interior . . . . ahhhhh,
truthfully, (to quote Wray Lemke) " . . . not my cuppa tea" . . . not in
blazing hot weather like we have around here. Then, there's the front
seats, which are totally shredded and beyond anyone's preservation
abilities. The material is simply gone, and the insides are now
outsides. So, I suppose I could replace the front seats in matching
old leather, dyed to match . . . .but alas, then it's not original anymore .
. . is it?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Likewise, the carpets are history . . . they have to be replaced.
Again, then it's not original anymore. "It's only original once", I've
heard. Then, there's the headliner. Not a rip or tear or stain
in it. BUT . . . dear Mrs. Millicent Rose Thompson must have smoked
about 85 million cases of cigarettes inside the poor thing, and I literally
can not stand to even briefly sit inside of it. So, that headliner
absolutely has to go . . . and who knows what else to get rid of the wreak
of cigarette smoke . . . I guess you gathered I'm a non-smoker :)))
Again, it's no longer original, and that headliner, together with the seats
and carpet and "NON negotiable".</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The overall black paint is pretty much in good shape . . . except for a
few spots, which I suppose I could just ignore, along with dings in the
front wings . . . suppose I could repair and spot paint just those?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Then, the engine . . . which was out of the car when I bought it, and
obviously wasn't removed just for exercise. The engine bay shows some
"bodging". Now we have to back up a bit too. Prior to getting
"Millicent Rose", I'd already bought 2 gals (and the hardener and the
reducer) of a sort of Midnight Blue type color paint, to paint
the ZB I was originally going to restore, along with new, from Lou, macrame
front door pulls, in a biscuit color . . . 'cuz that's the color we wanted
for the interior of that "first" car. Oh, and the Rivergate kit to go
with the Nissan 5 speed is already sitting here, along with Allen's 1800
adapter plate. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>So, should I "eat" all that, and keep "Milicent" stock. My
unbelievable, super supportive wife even said "So, do the original car with
all the upgrades, and the color we want (blue, biscuit interior), and then
preserve the other one!" Wow, some bride eh? T'was I who
actually said something like "Not gonna happen". Takes me about 5
years to do a car. I could be block sanding in my casket at that
rate.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>So thanks Steven for bringing this up. I'm enjoying the responses
so far. My mind is made up, and I know there are others who will
vehemently disagree with my decision, but in the end, ya know what?
It's our car! I'm not doing all this to please a few folks at the next
car show or GT or whatever. We'll never make everyone happy, but if my
bride likes it, I will be pleased.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>#2SteveK</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(0,0,0) 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----</DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(228,228,228); FONT: 10pt arial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial"><B>From:</B><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><A title=strovato@optonline.net
href="mailto:strovato@optonline.net">Steven Trovato</A></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><A title=zmagnette@autox.team.net
href="mailto:zmagnette@autox.team.net">List for the Z Magnette Group -
North America</A><SPAN class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>;<SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><A title=zmagnette@autox.team.net
href="mailto:zmagnette@autox.team.net">List for the Z Magnette Group -
North America</A></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><A title=zmagnette@autox.team.net
href="mailto:zmagnette@autox.team.net">List for the Z Magnette Group -
North America</A></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>Sunday, January 26, 2014 6:07
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>Re: [Zmagnette]
Preservation</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Phil,<BR><BR>Yes, I do plan to do what pleases me. I
am not a slave to the<SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>opinions of others, but I am
interested in the thoughts of people I<SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>respect. I have no
plans for a full restoration at this time. I am<SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>going to keep driving my car
and enjoying it. I'm not really looking<SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>for votes on what I should
do. I am interested in hearing what<SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>people think of this trend in
general. I am also interested in<SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>learning more techniques and
strategies for owning and maintaining a<SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>car with a preservation
attitude.<BR><BR>-Steve T.<BR><BR>At 08:53 PM 1/26/2014,<SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><A
href="mailto:mg1948@verizon.net">mg1948@verizon.net</A><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>wrote:<BR>>The question I
think you should ask yourself is "What do I want and<SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>>what pleases me" or is it
important what others think of your car.<BR>><BR>>I've had 21 MGs
& some I tried for strict originality & it was<SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>>important I show well
& others opinions. I would not drive in the<SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>>rain or 100 miles to a
meet.<BR>><BR>>Others, my Magnette, was not restored to that
level. It satisfied<SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>>my wife because of a/c,
and I wanted a reliable driver and not be<SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>>afraid of door dings,
bugs, and was a nice restoration but not a<SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>>trailer queen or 95+
restoration.<BR>><BR>>Just my
opinion.<BR>><BR>>Phil<BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Zmagnette
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